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Subject: Are we spoilt? rss

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Phil Sauer
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kenrick822 wrote:
I just wanted to ask are we so spoilt now with the top quality of our games that we seem to go mad on the slightest issue?

Well, we are here in the States... I personally fail to understand it, but that's just me.

To be frank, we're soft. Times are coming that will beat the snot out of that softness. We'll see if that helps.

Meanwhile, I'm going to join you in having fun with this beautiful stuff!

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Matt Tonks
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Hi Ric,

Same here; after reading your e-mail earlier in the week, I decided to get RoR anyway. Opened it yesterday & it looks great! I think gaming suffers the same high standards that any niche hobby comes with. People devote a lot of time & money into it & so they expect the best or near-perfection.

As long as the game is playable, understandable & you know what errors there are courtesy of the designer/publisher, surely that should be OK?

Cheers,

Matt...
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I saw an example of play and made comments on it. I thought it would be out next as it seemed ready to go (though they example only had one complete turn and part of the second so they may want to finish out the second turn or delete it).

But their priotiy seems to be to get the living rules out next. I also have a marked up copy of that and hope to finish and return it today or tomorrow at the latest. It will take them some time to filter through all my corrections as I crossed every T, dotted every I, and corrected every capitalization inconsistency (I think - I know first hand how hard it isto catch every mistake as i was pretty thorough and "correcting my corrections" I still have a fully marked up book). I also commented on unclear rules, double-checked all their cross references, and added some 60+ questions based on my own unclear thoughts on ruleas and the comments I followed here on the Geek. So while not perfect, I hope it goes a long way to getting it to point it should have been when it was released. No doubt, more errors will be found though..... THis is a beast of a read and blows out all the FFG edits I have made - even on their 80 page rulebooks.

I also believe the revised Errata sheet will be posted soon.

I can put up corrected graphics based on my scans and PhotoShop skills but was waiting to see if VG was going to do it first (since they have teh source material) and give it a little more time to see what else pops. I'll try to put together something by the weekend.
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Phil Sauer
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kenrick822 wrote:
I look forward to seeing your new rules etc Brian and I will give u two gold for your hard work mate.
Ric


A hearty, "Here! Here!" to that!
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Torben Sherwood
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Quote:

Ps A full example of play would be nice - it has been promised but nothing seems to have occurred yet ?


Hello there all,

Thank you for your words of encouragement, we appreciate it. Thank you also for the enthusiasm towards making the game better with people working on errata and offering comments to new players on how to better experience the game.

I agree that an example of play would be wonderful but this is a big game and that will take some time to pull off. Currently we are working on getting more titles out to the gaming community so we are not able to focus on this.

In time I hope we can do that for you and if not I hope that someone is able to do that for the community. I know I would give some Geek Gold for that!

Torben
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Dick Leban
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Illegitimi non carborundum.

(yeah, I know it's not real Latin, but it's better fake than the "Monvmentvm Latrina Qvinctii" sign still hanging on our downstairs bathroom door. Grant didn't know how to translate "and massage parlor.")
 
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Steve Bachman
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Cosmosys wrote:
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Ps A full example of play would be nice - it has been promised but nothing seems to have occurred yet ?

I agree that an example of play would be wonderful but this is a big game and that will take some time to pull off. Currently we are working on getting more titles out to the gaming community so we are not able to focus on this.

How many more titles are you planning on putting out before supporting your current releases?
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Phil Sauer
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This thread is so full of win, I'm getting all teary.

I will paraphrase... "Let he who is with perfect version of Republic of Rome cast the first stone."

Nobody measures up... not even Fantasy Flight Games, Games Workshop, or any other company you could name. There will be no board release for Middle Earth Quest nor for Runewars, as both have errors on them as well.

Thus, for those who are THAT unhappy, I would seriously suggest that you find a Haitian kid without a home and have them put a pox on Torben and Rik because YOUR TOYS aren't quite up to snuff (but others are quite happy with).

They would be happy to do such a thing if you bribed them with a little food right around now. Hurry... act now, while they're good and P*IS*ED.
 
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Grant Johnson
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Quote:
I agree that an example of play would be wonderful but this is a big game and that will take some time to pull off. Currently we are working on getting more titles out to the gaming community so we are not able to focus on this.

In time I hope we can do that for you and if not I hope that someone is able to do that for the community. I know I would give some Geek Gold for that!


Woot! Shameless self promotion!

Example of Play?

It got buried in all the general banter. I've got a couple of session reports I'm proud of, but they don't go into quite the step-by-step detail.
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Steve Bachman
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aaxiom wrote:
Nobody measures up... not even Fantasy Flight Games, Games Workshop, or any other company you could name.

The rest of your post was the usual pointlessness and off topic from the thread (again, as usual), but the first two companies that come to mind are GMT and Phalanx Games.
 
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Phil Sauer
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I know women who don't whine this much. Please. Neither of the two aforementioned companies have produced a perfect product... EVER.
 
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Phil Sauer
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tallgrant wrote:

Woot! Shameless self promotion!

No Grant... your session report totally rocked. MANY thanks for posting it!
 
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Ward wrote:
aaxiom wrote:
Nobody measures up... not even Fantasy Flight Games, Games Workshop, or any other company you could name.

The rest of your post was the usual pointlessness and off topic from the thread (again, as usual), but the first two companies that come to mind are GMT and Phalanx Games.

I really don't want to get in the mire of the two of you battling it out across the RoR threads, but....

I wouldn't use GMT as your argument (I have no experience with Phalanx Games). But GMT

1) regularly maintains living rules for many of their games.
2) offers additional editions that usually corrects misprints from the orginials
3) include their own over sight (including the &C: Ancients 4 or 5 that completely blew a symbol on an entire unit type, including the refernce sheets and had to include a replacement sticker sheet)
4) Make flat out mistakes (Didn't the new cards for Twilight Struggle have something like 5 misprinted cards out of a set of 8? - seriously, how hard is it to proof so few cards?)
5) don't get high praises for their "standard" or "deluxe maps" and fairly thin chits. Some complain about the lack of pre-applied stickers as well.
6) Have a magazine to support them in their mistakes where their frequently inlcude corrected chits for published games...and charge you $20 to buy ($14 for a pre-order).

Don't get me wrong, I love GMT and own a good collection of their games - and will jump on a lot of P500 lists without a second thought - many games even just to own, and most likely never play live. But to say they are a pinnacle of perfection is absolutely insane. (And before you go calling me a liar again, I realize you didn't actually say "pinnacle of perfection.")
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Steve Bachman
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aaxiom wrote:
I know women who don't whine this much. Please. Neither of the two aforementioned companies have produced a perfect product... EVER.

The only one who is whining on this thread is you, and you've been doing it on most threads. Not sure if you have a point to it, but it has gotten quite boring. snore

First of all, nobody (except you) have said anything about the products having to be perfect. Secondly, perhaps you'd like to point out the imperfections of Phalanx Games' Hey! That's My Fish!, Maharaja: Palace Building in India, or Age of Discovery. Or maybe you could critique the errors in GMT's Pacific Typhoon. That's certainly not an exhaustive list of their games that were finely produced, but it will get you started on your crusade to point out the errors of other publishers.
 
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If we are doing requests I sure would like valley games to send me my copy. It kinda grates seeing the game at my FLGS but my order direct from Valley still hasnt arrived.

Thanks
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Phil Sauer
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Steve, if VG is so horrible, why do you subject yourself to the abuse of doing business with them then? Surely you have superior alternatives elsewhere, no?

Really... I've actually been guilty of criticizing Jay at Rio Grande for what I considered to be a poor reprinting of Ra. But I changed my tune when I realized that the version he provided was far superior to the alternative... to not have it.

So, I'm now happy with his printing of Ra.

As for Phalanx, they mis-cut tokens all over the place in Rise of Empires, and I had some problems with the board. But I don't permit such shortcomings to ruin my enjoyment of the game. These problems are probably enough to drive someone with OCD to drink, but I can easily live with them.

We clearly see this differently. This is typically a good thing, so I'm going to leave it at that and let everyone continue the pile-on of VG since you're having so much fun.
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Steve Bachman
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Ward wrote:
aaxiom wrote:
Nobody measures up... not even Fantasy Flight Games, Games Workshop, or any other company you could name.

The rest of your post was the usual pointlessness and off topic from the thread (again, as usual), but the first two companies that come to mind are GMT and Phalanx Games.

I really don't want to get in the mire of the two of you battling it out across the RoR threads, but....

I wouldn't use GMT as your argument (I have no experience with Phalanx Games). But GMT

1) regularly maintains living rules for many of their games.
2) offers additional editions that usually corrects misprints from the orginials
3) include their own over sight (including the &C: Ancients 4 or 5 that completely blew a symbol on an entire unit type, including the refernce sheets and had to include a replacement sticker sheet)
4) Make flat out mistakes (Didn't the new cards for Twilight Struggle have something like 5 misprinted cards out of a set of 8? - seriously, how hard is it to proof so few cards?)
5) don't get high praises for their "standard" or "deluxe maps" and fairly thin chits. Some complain about the lack of pre-applied stickers as well.
6) Have a magazine to support them in their mistakes where their frequently inlcude corrected chits for published games...and charge you $20 to buy ($14 for a pre-order).

Don't get me wrong, I love GMT and own a good collection of their games - and will jump on a lot of P500 lists without a second thought - many games even just to own, and most likely never play live. But to say they are a pinnacle of perfection is absolutely insane. (And before you go calling me a liar again, I realize you didn't actually say "pinnacle of perfection.")

It wasn't as much that every GMT game hits the stores "perfect" as much as a publisher who actively strives to eliminate errors and own up to - and correct - the ones they let through. The Living Rules are a great example of this. Some are just clarifications, others corrections, some even changes. But the components of the game don't have the errors, so printing out new rules makes no difference to most. Most of your other examples actually show why GMT is such a good publisher. In short, they SUPPORT THEIR GAMES instead of the "dump and run" tactic Torben illustrated in his post.
GMT's maps and counters, as well as using sticker sheets, are design choices - not errors. Consumers generally know this when they purchase the games because it is well known and, especially when it comes to paper maps, largely preferred by their target audience.
The only one obsessed with the product being absolutely perfect is Phil. Others have merely criticized VG for an unreasonable amount of errors.
 
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Steve Bachman
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aaxiom wrote:
Really... I've actually been guilty of criticizing Jay at Rio Grande for what I considered to be a poor reprinting of Ra. But I changed my tune when I realized that the version he provided was far superior to the alternative... to not have it.

So, I'm now happy with his printing of Ra.

Yes, you've lowered your standards and bit your tongue, and now you are happy. Congrats on being able to find your inner peace.

aaxiom wrote:
As for Phalanx, they mis-cut tokens all over the place in Rise of Empires, and I had some problems with the board. But I don't permit such shortcomings to ruin my enjoyment of the game. These problems are probably enough to drive someone with OCD to drink, but I can easily live with them.

And what action did you take? Did you contact them about it to see if they would back up their product? I have probably a dozen Phalanx Games titles and none have had such errors, but from my contacts with them I'd bet they would be willing to back up their product.

So, Phil, what errors did you find in the games I listed above? Yeah, that's what I thought - just blowing steam out your tail again. It's okay, that's what we've all come to expect from you. See, we've lowered our standards too! shake
 
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Phil Sauer
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Actually, the key to all of this is I'm happy with the products I purchase and enjoy them immensely. You, on the other hand are apparently quite miserable.

It's not about lowering standards... it's about understanding niche markets and delivering printed material to market at an affordable cost. This is a facet of business you fail to understand.

But you are a regular Jesus Christ in your own mind. I would hope you forgive me for failing to respect thy Holy and Righteous Perfection here in this forum.

Amen.
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Steve Bachman
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aaxiom wrote:
Actually, the key to all of this is I'm happy...
{drivel drivel drivel}
...Amen.

snore
 
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Matt Tonks
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I'm not taking sides, but seriously...

Ward wrote:
aaxiom wrote:
Actually, the key to all of this is I'm happy...
{drivel drivel drivel}
...Amen.

snore


snore
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Jesus, this is like some sort of demented chick fight spilling across all the ROR threads! I agree with you Phil, but he obviously has a bone to pick with VG and you're not going to change his mind. Just leave him be, I think most of us know what's going on. Just go and enjoy your ROR, I know I am .
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Petdoc wrote:
Jesus, this is like some sort of demented chick fight spilling across all the ROR threads! I agree with you Phil, but he obviously has a bone to pick with VG and you're not going to change his mind. Just leave him be, I think most of us know what's going on. Just go and enjoy your ROR, I know I am .

Next time, read the thread before spouting off will ya? My first post was a relevant question in response to Torben's post. It was IMMEDIATELY followed by Phil's totally irrelevant post attacking any who dare question VG and his typical attempt to derail a thread to get it locked.

How was my question to Torben "a bone to pick"? And why are Phil's stalking replies to my posts legitimate to you, but my questions to VG are not? Oh that's right, you agree with him so therefore everything he does is fine with you. shake
 
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Ward wrote:
Cosmosys wrote:
Quote:

Ps A full example of play would be nice - it has been promised but nothing seems to have occurred yet ?

I agree that an example of play would be wonderful but this is a big game and that will take some time to pull off. Currently we are working on getting more titles out to the gaming community so we are not able to focus on this.

How many more titles are you planning on putting out before supporting your current releases?


LOL. Oh ya, thats a legitimate, nontrollish snipe... er, question. There's no need to play the victim card. You have a beef with VG, thats fine. I'm pissed at LnL right now. It's human nature if you've had a transaction go sour on you. My criticism was meant to be directed at both of you. I may agree with Phil, but you're both acting like children. See, now you'll both be pissed off with me .
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Steve, would you kindly take this trash elsewhere? You are personally attacking him. I'm not taking sides, but he rather politely said you both disagree and left it at that, and you piled on the insults and wouldn't let it go...for that matter, his response wasn't even really *targeting* your initial post...dude, let it go, I can tell you who looks like the ass here and who doesn't, and plenty others could too.
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