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Subject: question about elf sorcerer timing rss

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Frederic Bush
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When you have an elf sorcerer and defeat a monster and use the elf's Dungeon effect to put a monster out of play, can you wait until you refill the hall before using the ability, or are you limited to getting rid of monsters that were on the board at the start of your turn?
 
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Ben Hawks
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Good question. I would assume before you refill the dungeon, because that's when spoils effects activate. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Eagle-Eyed Superhawk
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fbush555 wrote:
When you have an elf sorcerer and defeat a monster and use the elf's Dungeon effect to put a monster out of play, can you wait until you refill the hall before using the ability, or are you limited to getting rid of monsters that were on the board at the start of your turn?


Actually Dungeon effects are only used BEFORE you battle. You'll use the elf's ability and refill the dungeon before you even decide which monster to fight.

Edit: See the "Enter the Dungeon" rules from the updated rulebook.

Quote:
Enter the Dungeon
1. Reveal your hand.
2. You may use some, none, or all of the Dungeon Effects from your cards. Unless the card has a mandatory Effect (like Disease), you are not required to use all Spells or Effects. You may equip one Weapon to each Hero, if the Strength requirements are met (see page 6).
3. Declare which Monster and rank you are attacking.
4. Resolve the battle. See “Battles” on page 10.
a. Calculate your total Attack Value, including all Light Penalties.
b. Resolve Battle Effects (adjust Attack Value as necessary).
c. Place an undefeated Monster on the bottom of the Dungeon Deck.
d. Place defeated Monster and Disease cards on your discard pile.
e. Receive Spoils (if any).
f. Shift Monster cards to fill empty ranks; refill the Dungeon Hall.
g. Resolve Breach Effects (if any) (see page 19).
5. End your turn by discarding all cards (whether used or not) face up on your discard pile, and draw six new cards to form a new hand.
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Ben Hawks
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Zedsdead wrote:
fbush555 wrote:
When you have an elf sorcerer and defeat a monster and use the elf's Dungeon effect to put a monster out of play, can you wait until you refill the hall before using the ability, or are you limited to getting rid of monsters that were on the board at the start of your turn?


Actually Dungeon effects are only used BEFORE you battle. You'll use the elf's ability and refill the dungeon before you even decide which monster to fight.


True, but the card in question reads: "Dungeon: You may return one monster to bottom of deck after defeating a monster" (emphasis mine).

Why word it that way if you can do it before choosing a monster to attack?
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Ryan Metzler
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banjothulu wrote:
Zedsdead wrote:
fbush555 wrote:
When you have an elf sorcerer and defeat a monster and use the elf's Dungeon effect to put a monster out of play, can you wait until you refill the hall before using the ability, or are you limited to getting rid of monsters that were on the board at the start of your turn?


Actually Dungeon effects are only used BEFORE you battle. You'll use the elf's ability and refill the dungeon before you even decide which monster to fight.


True, but the card in question reads: "Dungeon: You may return one monster to bottom of deck after defeating a monster" (emphasis mine).

Why word it that way if you can do it before choosing a monster to attack?


Actually this is a good question Ben, and I know its been covered elsewhere, but for the sake of simplicity I'll answer again.

The Elf Sorcerer is one of the cards that, due to people requesting general (all encompassing) rules for different effects, no longer works in the EXACT way he originally did. There aren't many examples of this, but he is one of the few.

The confounding issue here is the tag "Dungeon:" before this effect. In his case the "Dungeon:" tag really shouldn't be there. Instead, his Dungeon Effect should be treated as more of a general trait.

EDIT: I should have showered BEFORE answering...answering before I'm awake is a bad idea. Even so, my previous ruling (which no one probably saw) was still correct...the reason I gave was wrong however. The answer to your initial question, Ben, is that you DO NOT refill the dungeon hall before you may use the Elf Sorcerer's ability. This is reflected by similar wording in the card and rulebook (although perhaps may slip by the attention of many people). The wording on the card says:

Elf Sorcerer Card wrote:

Dungeon: You may return one monster to bottom of deck after defeating a monster"


The timing of this card, when compared to the rules which lay out dungeon turn order, then becomes obvious. A reference to step 4d of the Enter the Dungeon turn order states:

Thunderstone Rules v1.4 p4 wrote:

d. Place defeated Monster and Disease cards on your discard pile.

Although perhaps not the BEST timing description, this clearly indicates when monsters have been officially defeated. As this occurs before 4f, which is the refill the hall step, the Elf Sorcerer's ability would trigger BEFORE the hall is refilled, leaving you only two options as to which monster to send to the bottom of the deck.

Hope this helps!
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Will M. Baker
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My Elf Sorcerer (from v1.4) reads: "You may return one Monster to the bottom of the deck after defeating a Monster. (Refill the hall.)" So apparently the "Dungeon" component has been removed. However, I still have a timing issue (as manifested on Facebook; see: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8714289#8714289).

1. I have two Elf Sorcerers.
2. I defeat a monster.
3. Elf Sorcerer #1 banishes a monster.
4. I refill the hall, and that reveals a Steam Torment, whose Global effect should prevent additional banishments.
5. Can Elf Sorcerer #2 still banish a monster as well, or is he prevented by the Steam Torment?

I would assume that the Global effect takes place immediately, but I'm not sure. (Facebook currently allows the second banishment.)
 
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Ryan Metzler
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darquil wrote:
My Elf Sorcerer (from v1.4) reads: "You may return one Monster to the bottom of the deck after defeating a Monster. (Refill the hall.)" So apparently the "Dungeon" component has been removed. However, I still have a timing issue (as manifested on Facebook; see: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8714289#8714289).

1. I have two Elf Sorcerers.
2. I defeat a monster.
3. Elf Sorcerer #1 banishes a monster.
4. I refill the hall, and that reveals a Steam Torment, whose Global effect should prevent additional banishments.
5. Can Elf Sorcerer #2 still banish a monster as well, or is he prevented by the Steam Torment?

I would assume that the Global effect takes place immediately, but I'm not sure. (Facebook currently allows the second banishment.)


It should NOT be allowed.
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Carl Bussema
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The Facebook card is templated as

SPOILS: You may return one monster to the bottom of the Dungeon Deck after defeating a monster.

Now I don't know where they got that text if that's not the 1.4 templating (although I can guess...). Now, let's look carefully at that:

If it is being treated as a SPOILS ability, it means that multiple instances (from multiple Elf Sorcerers) would all have be resolved before any refills occur.

If that is correct, then you can't ever reach the scenario of banish-refill-reveal Steam Torment-banish again, because the time to use the second banish has passed by the time you reveal Steam Torment.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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InfoCynic wrote:
The Facebook card is templated as

SPOILS: You may return one monster to the bottom of the Dungeon Deck after defeating a monster.

Now I don't know where they got that text if that's not the 1.4 templating (although I can guess...). Now, let's look carefully at that:

If it is being treated as a SPOILS ability, it means that multiple instances (from multiple Elf Sorcerers) would all have be resolved before any refills occur.

If that is correct, then you can't ever reach the scenario of banish-refill-reveal Steam Torment-banish again, because the time to use the second banish has passed by the time you reveal Steam Torment.


If that is indeed the templating, then you are correct.
 
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Will M. Baker
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This has been clarified in the print-and-play as well.

Barrowdale Sorcerer wrote:
Spoils: Place 1 monster in the hall on the bottom of the dungeon deck. Refill the hall.
 
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