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Subject: melee table rss

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dylan parker
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hi all, just wondering if anyone can tell me how to work out the ratios for the table? i know you divide by the most common factor but what happens when i get 9:5 odds or 3:5 odds? what would my kill number be? cheers dylan
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Michael Cox
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You just drop the fractions, so 9:5 becomes 1:1.

See page 10 of the v3 rules.

Michael
 
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p55carroll
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9:5 is 3:2

3:5 is 1:2

For each column on the Melee Table, ask yourself, "Do I have at least these odds but not not enough for the next-higher column?" If so, that's the column you use.

So, if you have 32 to 15, you have 2:1 but not 3:1, so you use the 2:1 kill number.

If you have 14 to 8, you have 3:2 but not 2:1, so you use the 3:2 kill number.
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dylan parker
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i may be being dumb here but how does 9:5 become 1:1? i was never very good at maths
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dylan parker
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
9:5 is 1:1

3:5 is 1:2

For each column on the Melee Table, ask yourself, "Do I have at least these odds but not not enough for the next-higher column?" If so, that's the column you use.

So, if you have 32 to 15, you have 2:1 but not 3:1, so you use the 2:1 kill number.

If you have 14 to 8, you have 3:2 but not 2:1, so you use the 3:2 kill number.


thnks, that cleared it up for me.
 
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p55carroll
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akuba wrote:
i may be being dumb here but how does 9:5 become 1:1? i was never very good at maths

It's a question of how many 5s there are in 9. Only one, so 1:1. One and a half, so 3:2.

If it were 12:5, there are two 5s in 12 (with 2 left over), so 2:1. And so on.

With 1:2 and below, it's the same thing backward:

Say you've got 5:16. How many 5s are there in 16? Three (with 1 left over), so the odds are 1:3.

It's trickier with the 3:2 column on the Melee Table. One way to think of it is that it's the same as 1.5:1 odds. So, if you have 13:8, do the same thing as above--ask yourself how many 8s are in 13. Well, just one--but also another half an 8 (4). So, you've got 1.5:1, or 3:2. And you can use the 3:2 kill number.
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dylan parker
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
akuba wrote:
i may be being dumb here but how does 9:5 become 1:1? i was never very good at maths

It's a question of how many 5s there are in 9. Only one, so 1:1.

If it were 12:5, there are two 5s in 12 (with 2 left over), so 2:1. And so on.

With 1:2 and below, it's the same thing backward:

Say you've got 5:16. How many 5s are there in 16? Three (with 1 left over), so the odds are 1:3.

It's trickier with the 3:2 column on the Melee Table. One way to think of it is that it's the same as 1.5:1 odds. So, if you have 13:8, do the same thing as above--ask yourself how many 8s are in 13. Well, just one--but also another half an 8 (4). So, you've got 1.5:1, or 3:2. And you can use the 3:2 kill number.


thanks, that made it alot clearer, had the same problem playing aslsk1 but now i understand. will get backto my game now
 
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Chris Severs
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9 v 5 is 3:2
 
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Chris Severs
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in pure maths, yes. in a melee? No. whistle
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p55carroll
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Foolish_Dog wrote:
9 v 5 is 3:2


Aaargh! You're right.

5 goes into 9 one and a half times, so it's 3:2.

I edited my post above.
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Lawrence Hung
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3:2 is 1.5:1. Isn't it easier if you can divide the figures and see if it exceeds 1.5? If it exceeds and less than 2, this is a 3:2. For example, 9:5 is 1.8:1, exceeding 1.5:1 but less than 2:1. So it is 1.5:1. That's the way I calculate it and I think it is much faster one when uisng a calculator.
 
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p55carroll
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Lawrence Hung wrote:
3:2 is 1.5:1. Isn't it easier if you can divide the figures and see if it exceeds 1.5? If it exceeds and less than 2, this is a 3:2. For example, 9:5 is 1.8:1, exceeding 1.5:1 but less than 2:1. So it is 1.5:1. That's the way I calculate it and I think it is much faster one when uisng a calculator.

Yes, that works just fine. I'd never use a calculator myself when playing a game, but with or without one, I think you've got it right.

As much as I like LnL, one of my pet peeves about it is that 3:2 column on the Melee Table. Why no 2:3? Also, the very low FP numbers generate a lot of fractions, which are always pesky to deal with.

But, every game has its unique features. You just have to get used to 'em.
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Lawrence Hung
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Quote:
one of my pet peeves about it is that 3:2 column on the Melee Table. Why no 2:3?


That's another way to encourage you to attack...yes, always attack!
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Pablo Merighi
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
Foolish_Dog wrote:
9 v 5 is 3:2


Aaargh! You're right.

5 goes into 9 one and a half times, so it's 3:2.

I edited my post above.


From the rulebook Page 9:
8.0 Melee Combat

"... an odds ratio is determined, dropping any fractions. For example: 4FP attacking 2FP is 2-1, whereas 5FP attacking 2FP is not 2.5-1 but also 2-1."
So based on the example of the rulebook:
a 9FP attacking a 5FP is not 4.5-2.5, but also 4-2 or 2-1.
Not pure math, just a game rule.

Regards
 
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p55carroll
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merighip wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Foolish_Dog wrote:
9 v 5 is 3:2


Aaargh! You're right.

5 goes into 9 one and a half times, so it's 3:2.

I edited my post above.


From the rulebook Page 9:
8.0 Melee Combat

"... an odds ratio is determined, dropping any fractions. For example: 4FP attacking 2FP is 2-1, whereas 5FP attacking 2FP is not 2.5-1 but also 2-1."
So based on the example of the rulebook:
a 9FP attacking a 5FP is not 4.5-2.5, but also 4-2 or 2-1.
Not pure math, just a game rule.

A game rule misapplied.

You do the division first, then drop fractions.

How many times does 5 go into 9? If 1 time, then 1:1 odds; if 1.5 times, then 3:2 odds; if 2 times, then 2:1 odds. It goes 1.5 times (because 7.5 is still less than 9), so the odds are 3:2.
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Pablo Merighi
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Patrick:
you're right.
But I interpret it only what is on the rulebook "as it is".

Another approach can be:
9FP vs 5FP is, 9 parts vs 5 parts on a total of 14 parts (9+5=14).
So we convert it to percentage, looks like:
9 is 64% of 14
5 is 36% of 14
Rounding to it closest values:
9 is 60%
5 is 40%
Again to integers:
6 vs 4 is now 3FP vs 2FP.

I expect not to be adding more confusion.
Just another point of view.

Regards
 
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Pablo Merighi
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Patrick Carroll wrote:


As much as I like LnL, one of my pet peeves about it is that 3:2 column on the Melee Table. Why no 2:3?

Anybody answer to this?

Regards
 
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Carlos S. Olivares Pérez
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Para mí está claro. Hay unas proporciones dadas:

1-3 (.333), 1-2 (0.5), 2-3 (0.667), 1-1 (1.0), 3-2 (1.5), 2-1 (2.0), 3-1 (3.0)

Haces la división ataque/defensa. En el caso dado, 9/5 = 1.8. De las proporciones dadas, el valor que más se ajusta y no excede a nuestro 1.8 es 3-2 (1.5).

Si fuera 9-7 (1.28), sería un 1-1.
Si fuera 13-14 (0.92), sería un 2-3 (incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1).

El problema es que no se trata de "eliminar decimales", sino de ajustar a las proprciones dadas sin excederlas. Esa es la esencia de la regla, aunque su redacción pueda dar lugar a equívocos.
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p55carroll
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proyecto_mgj wrote:
Para mí está claro. Hay unas proporciones dadas:

1-3 (.333), 1-2 (0.5), 2-3 (0.667), 1-1 (1.0), 3-2 (1.5), 2-1 (2.0), 3-1 (3.0)

Haces la división ataque/defensa. En el caso dado, 9/5 = 1.8. De las proporciones dadas, el valor que más se ajusta y no excede a nuestro 1.8 es 3-2 (1.5).

Si fuera 9-7 (1.28), sería un 1-1.
Si fuera 13-14 (0.92), sería un 2-3 (incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1).

El problema es que no se trata de "eliminar decimales", sino de ajustar a las proprciones dadas sin excederlas. Esa es la esencia de la regla, aunque su redacción pueda dar lugar a equívocos.

Sí, está claro. Pero no hay una proporción de 2-3 (0.667). Por lo tanto, 13-14 sería un 1-2 ("incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1").
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Carlos S. Olivares Pérez
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Patrick Carroll wrote:

Sí, está claro. Pero no hay una proporción de 2-3 (0.667). Por lo tanto, 13-14 sería un 1-2 ("incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1").


From Errata v1.1: Add a column for "2-3" between "1-2" and "1-1". The Kill Number is "9".
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Pablo Merighi
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proyecto_mgj wrote:
Para mí está claro. Hay unas proporciones dadas:

1-3 (.333), 1-2 (0.5), 2-3 (0.667), 1-1 (1.0), 3-2 (1.5), 2-1 (2.0), 3-1 (3.0)

Haces la división ataque/defensa. En el caso dado, 9/5 = 1.8. De las proporciones dadas, el valor que más se ajusta y no excede a nuestro 1.8 es 3-2 (1.5).

Si fuera 9-7 (1.28), sería un 1-1.
Si fuera 13-14 (0.92), sería un 2-3 (incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1).

El problema es que no se trata de "eliminar decimales", sino de ajustar a las proporciones dadas sin excederlas. Esa es la esencia de la regla, aunque su redacción pueda dar lugar a equívocos.


A mi forma de verlo las proporciones para:
9-7, serian 9 partes contra 7 partes, sobre un total de 16.
O sea expresado en fracciones es 9/16 vs 7/16.
En porcentajes 9 es 56% de 16 y 7 es 44% de 16.
El 56% redondeamos al mas cercano 60% y el 44% redondeamos a 40%.
Nos queda 60% FP vs. 40%FP, simplificando 3-2.

Saludos
Regards
 
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p55carroll
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proyecto_mgj wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:

Sí, está claro. Pero no hay una proporción de 2-3 (0.667). Por lo tanto, 13-14 sería un 1-2 ("incluso estando tan cerca del 1-1").

From Errata v1.1: Add a column for "2-3" between "1-2" and "1-1". The Kill Number is "9".

Gracias! I missed that. I'll have to check the melee table in my latest LnL games.
 
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Carlos S. Olivares Pérez
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merighip wrote:
A mi forma de verlo las proporciones para:
9-7, serian 9 partes contra 7 partes, sobre un total de 16.
O sea expresado en fracciones es 9/16 vs 7/16.
En porcentajes 9 es 56% de 16 y 7 es 44% de 16.
El 56% redondeamos al mas cercano 60% y el 44% redondeamos a 40%.
Nos queda 60% FP vs. 40%FP, simplificando 3-2.

Entiendo tu manera, aunque intuitiva no es, al menos para mí. Tampoco sé porqué redondeas al más cercano. Creo que el espíritu de la regla al desestimar algunos decimales para redondear hacia abajo es favorecer al defensor (como en la mayoría de wargames que he jugado).

Del modo que expliqué lo veo muy claro. Intenta jugar así un par de escenarios. Quizá es que yo ya he jugado a muchos wargames y estoy acostumbrado a verlo de esa manera (de redondear a la proporción de la tabla, en este caso favorenciendo al defensor). La gente con la que he jugado lo ve también así, aunque sólo somos jugadores, y no árbitros.
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Pablo Merighi
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proyecto_mgj wrote:
Para mí está claro. Hay unas proporciones dadas:

1-3 (.333), 1-2 (0.5), 2-3 (0.667), 1-1 (1.0), 3-2 (1.5), 2-1 (2.0), 3-1 (3.0)

Haces la división ataque/defensa. En el caso dado, 9/5 = 1.8. De las proporciones dadas, el valor que más se ajusta y no excede a nuestro 1.8 es 3-2 (1.5).



Gracias por la aclaración Carlos.
Aplicaré este sistema en mis próximas partidas.
Saludos
 
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