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Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Plant question rss

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Jordan Browne
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Alright, so when the Plant copies a power which has some additional components included with it, presumably it doesn't copy those components (e.g. the Miser's hoard or the Symbiote's extra ships or the Warrior tokens). An instance where this doesn't seem so cut and dry to me is when Plant is grafting the Reincarnator. Does the Plant gain the ability of whatever power the Reincarnator has at the time, or does it fall into the same category as those other power components which can't be copied? I see both sides of it, but I'm leaning towards the ruling that Plant doesn't copy that, he takes the base Reincarnator power and since that doesn't inherintly come with a power, he essentially has no power and might as well have played a cosmic zap on the Reincarnator. That said, I'm not sure, so as this is a question which I'm sure has come up in past editions, I'm sure one of you guys will remember what the past rulings have been, or otherwise just chime in on what you think.
 
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Roger
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It does sound like they would steal the Reincarnator base power. An interesting ramification of that would be that if they then went on to lose that encounter, Plant would then draw a new power due to Reincarnator and become that power. That seems... bad.... unless they're that new power in tandem with Plant.

Definitely interested to see what others have to say about this...
 
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Jack Reda
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Plant doesn't copy. He TAKES. So yes, he would take the Warrior's points, and the Reincarnator's current incarnation. He can't take Symbiote, because it can't be taken. Now, if Plant steals Reincarnator and loses, then in my estimation, Reincarnator reincarnates.
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Chris Withem

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I was asking things like this in my other topics, but when plant "takes" a power that does special things (such as fungus) granted he creates a stack for the turn, but does that stack just remain a stack until it gets killed since it is still considered 1 ship? also if he "takes" limiting powers like macron, does that mean he's found a psuedo-way to get around their limitations (e.g. macron can only send 1 ship)?
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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I don't think there's any way around the Macron power. If for whatever reason Macron has more than 1 ship in the gate, and he has his power, those extra ships have to go away (the only exception being an effect that specifically allows Macron to do this- e.g. his super flare).

If Plant grafts Fungus, and defeats Fungus, putting a Fungus ship into a stack under Plant's ships, then those ships stay there until the stack goes to the warp. In this case, Plant would have a fabulous and ironic boost.
 
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Chris Withem

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Regarding fungus vs plant. plant has to graft an ally not a main player. or at least the wild anyways. My question though is he has to continually steal fungus's power to continue getting benefit, other thent hat he just has captured ships, yes?
 
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Moisés Solé
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Wait. If Plant steals Fungus, and then play the Fungus flare, which side of it activates?
 
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Jordan Browne
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Alright thanks for the clarifications. One last question, when the Plant steals another players power can he use the super flare associated with that power if he has it?
 
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Chris Withem

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Given that the timing is correct (he obviously can't use the super of kamikazee or other flares/alien powers that happen prior to planning), then yes I would say he can use the super, since its the same issue as the philanthropist wild-flare.
 
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Andy Leber
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numerounoarnold wrote:
Alright thanks for the clarifications. One last question, when the Plant steals another players power can he use the super flare associated with that power if he has it?


I would say no... the super says something like "if you ARE the [alien]"... just because you have their power, doesn't mean you are that alien.

 
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Chris Withem

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just to play a bit of devil's advocate....

Do you rule the same way with reincarnator? Can reincarnatr use the super flare of the alien he has imprinted or not?
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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Grafting doesn't let Plant use a super flare for someone else's alien, nor can Reincarnator use the super of an incarnation.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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But you have to use the Wild if you get zapped or lose power, right? In my opinion that would qualify Plant/Reincarnator/any meta-alien to use the Super of their meta-power until he has to let it go.
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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In 25 years, we've just never allowed an alien to use another alien's super, no matter what the circumstances. It was just sacrosanct.

Yes, if you don't control your power, it means you have to use the wild. But I don't see that as carte blanche that your super is available for others to use (even if they've gotten a hold of your power).

For example, if Insect were in the game, and was copying Macron's power, and Cosmic Zapped Macron, and was holding the Macron flare- Insect would still only have access to the wild. I think the same is true with Plant. Plant is still Plant, even if he's using another power.

Cosmic is a crazy ass game though, and I've seen things get officially determined one way that made no sense to me, so color me unsurprised if it turns out this is the case here too.
 
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Jordan Browne
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See, I would generally agree that one alien can't use another's super flare, regardless of whether it has limited possession of that power at the time or not. But since Jack made it clear that it steals the alien power, including all potential facets thereof, following that line of thinking it would make sense that the plant would get to use that power's super flare. But then, I'm not sure.
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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Before Edicts were renamed Artifacts, anything that your power used (like the Terrorists' list of bombed planets, etc) was called an artifact. Artifacts moved with the power if you switched them (like swapping aliens from the Sorcerer flare). You'd get Warrior's points.

Reincarnator's extra power was treated as an artifact. So was Plant using someone else's power. Since you were using an artifact, you weren't "being" the alien, and this couldn't use a super. Even typing this, I am not sure why that made perfect sense to us, but it did.

Another way I look at it is like fingerprints. You can't open the lock with the super sophisticated lock, because you aren't the Macron. That lock is the super flare. So even though you're dressed like him, and using his tools and stuff, you aren't him.

Now, cue FFG with a ruling to prove me totally wrong.

goo
 
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Chris Withem

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What of cards or similar effects like the Philanthropist wild flare? you literally give your power away for an entire turn. Still not able to use the super flare? Even if it was given away for the sake of letting that person win his encounter this turn? (like giving away macron to somebody with the super flare). I think this is completely acceptable and even in check with the chaotic nature that is CE.
 
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Ido Abelman
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about the original question, looks like you didn't read the last pharse of FFG's reincarnator: "Aliens with the power to copy your power may do so (copying both your Reincarnator power and whatever power you are reincarnated as), but if they lose an encounter while doing so they must reincarnate, losing their original power.". I think it clarifies the point.
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Bustoffson wrote:

Reincarnator's extra power was treated as an artifact. So was Plant using someone else's power. Since you were using an artifact, you weren't "being" the alien, and this couldn't use a super. Even typing this, I am not sure why that made perfect sense to us, but it did.


I haven't played any other CE except FFG's so I have to ask if the following sentence should influence the whole thing. Reincarnators card says: "Draw an alien power card at random from the unused pile and become that alien."

[comical dramatic echo effect] "...become that alien..." [end of effect]

So is the player (Renicarnator) actualy "being" the alien or not?
 
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Andy Leber
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indidkid wrote:
Bustoffson wrote:

Reincarnator's extra power was treated as an artifact. So was Plant using someone else's power. Since you were using an artifact, you weren't "being" the alien, and this couldn't use a super. Even typing this, I am not sure why that made perfect sense to us, but it did.


I haven't played any other CE except FFG's so I have to ask if the following sentence should influence the whole thing. Reincarnators card says: "Draw an alien power card at random from the unused pile and become that alien."

[comical dramatic echo effect] "...become that alien..." [end of effect]

So is the player (Renicarnator) actualy "being" the alien or not?


In the case of the reincarnator, we play that YES, you ARE the alien and get the super (on the off chance the flare is even in the game, you might as well let him have some fun).

But we don't allow use of the super for any other cases (so far)
 
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Just a Bill
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The Warp wrote:
Plant doesn't copy. He TAKES. So yes, he would take the Warrior's points, and the Reincarnator's current incarnation.

I still really dislike the consequences this poses for things like Fury. We seriously need some official answers from FFG.

The Warp wrote:
Now, if Plant steals Reincarnator and loses, then in my estimation, Reincarnator reincarnates.

Actually Plant would reincarnate, according to Reincarnator's text.

Bustoffson wrote:
If for whatever reason Macron has more than 1 ship in the gate, and he has his power, those extra ships have to go away

Sorry, this is not correct. Macron does not pose any kind of ongoing limitation to ships in the gate. Rather, it has a one-time, zappable use clause that requires putting in one ship at that moment. Plant unquestionably copies Macron after this point in the encounter, and thus can quite easily have four ships in the encounter worth 4 units each for a total of 16.

NoobSauce wrote:
[Plant] has to continually steal fungus's power to continue getting benefit, other [than that] he just has captured ships, yes?

That is the most sensible interpretation, yes.

Bustoffson wrote:
nor can Reincarnator use the super of an incarnation.

Sure he can. If you've got the alien sheet, you are that alien and can use the Super flare.

CBpegasus wrote:
the last pharse of FFG's reincarnator ... clarifies the point.

It's impressive how much moot discussion we can generate before somebody actually reads the card. ;-)

indidkid wrote:
So is the player (Renicarnator) actualy "being" the alien or not?

Yes.

As to the issue of using the Super for an alien you've copied/stolen, that's an interesting question and I can see arguments for both sides. I think I need to do more research before feeling comfortable with one interpretation or the other.
 
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Bindlestick Bindlestick
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Bill Martinson wrote:

As to the issue of using the Super for an alien you've copied/stolen, that's an interesting question and I can see arguments for both sides. I think I need to do more research before feeling comfortable with one interpretation or the other.


It appears to me that you only steal "the power" not the sheet itself. And everything I read in the rule book would indicate that those are indeed two separate things. Granted FFG's rules are not the best, but I tend to think that by the strict letter of the rules, you'd not be able to use the super.

Now, thematically, if you want to let Plant use someone else's super, I don't really see that being a problem. /shrug.
 
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Derek Thompson
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Thematically, since the super flare is part of that Alien's power, and Plant takes their power, Plant should be able to use their super flare.
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