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Subject: Another race and a couple more specials! rss

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Marc Du Rietz
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Hello again,
got a couple more ideas that needs som outside criticism to get balanced right and to get all the question-marks filled in.
So here we go!


Races:


Gargoyles (6 + 11 stoneform tokens)

When the enemy conquers one of your regions, return one gargoyle token to the tray, but pick up one stoneform token. The stoneform token is then placed at the conquered region. Gargoyles conquer regions with a stoneform token in them with one less gargoyle token than normal. After a region with a stoneform token in it gets conquered by gargoyles, you replace it with a gargoyle token. If a region with a stoneform token in it gets abandoned (that is empty) the stoneform token shall be replaced with a gargoyle token. The gargoyles ability to assume stoneform remains in decline. Stoneform tokens do not add to a regions defense and are immune to special attacks such as exorcism.

*Hardy race, not easily conquered*

My partner in crime have made the art for Gargoyles: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/667225/small-world


Specials:


Zealot (4 + 2 Temple tokens)

Once per turn the zealots may build a holy temple at any controlled region. The zealots then fights vigorously to defend their temples. They may conquer any region adjecant to the temple for one less token with a minimum of 1 token required, and the region with the temple in it recieves a defensive bonus (+1). If conquered the temple is destroyed. When entering decline the zealots loose their faith and the temples are destroyed. You may place all temples in the same region for extra defense, but the conquering power doesn't stack between temples.

*Fanatics spreading the good words*


Exorcist (5)

Capable of purging two regions, adjacent to the exorcists, of all life per turn. All active race tokens in a purged region will be redeployed immediately. Declined race tokens in a purged region will be returned to tray (declined ghouls are all re-deployed). You may purge at any point during your conquest phase.

*Purging the land of "evil"*


Please comment with something constructive

*Fixes and balancing thanks to the forum posters
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Colin Fahrion
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Question does the Gargoyle also loose a race token like normal when they are conquered? Thus, one goes to the box and another turns to stone? Or is it that they are sorta like elves in that they never really loose a token?

I'm assuming it's the latter and as such I really like the Gargoyles. However, I might kick them up to 5 and make their power disappear in decline.

I really really love the Religious power, but not so much the name as it seems dry. Maybe Holy or Devote or Zealot or Fanatic or Crusader.

Exorcism I'm not so sure of. What happens to the purge tokens after they are played? Are they left on the board? Can those regions be conquered?

 
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Gumsch
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I also like the Gargoyle idea.It's a pretty creative defensive ability that really feels thematic.

Though I like the slightly fanatical touch of Purge I'm afraid that it's simply a bit overpowered. The immediate redistribution of the purged tokens is a drawback - but ... I'll have to join Catcube's question. What happens with the purge tokens?
I'm guessing that you don't intend to turn purge into a rabid-dragonmaster ability, so I'll wager that you can't conquer purged regions yourself. And that, eventually, the purged tokens are supposed to be removed. Still ... sounds like a very powerful, potentially problematic ability. If the purged regions are supposed to serve as a temporary roadblock, you could easily block chokepoints - in addition to eliminating well defended enemy fortresses.

Religious sound quite good, I suppose. Originally I considered it a bit bland, just another type of fortress - but after thinking a little on it, I actually like it more and more.
 
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Marc Du Rietz
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catcubed wrote:
Question does the Gargoyle also loose a race token like normal when they are conquered? Thus, one goes to the box and another turns to stone? Or is it that they are sorta like elves in that they never really loose a token?

I'm assuming it's the latter and as such I really like the Gargoyles. However, I might kick them up to 5 and make their power disappear in decline.

I really really love the Religious power, but not so much the name as it seems dry. Maybe Holy or Devote or Zealot or Fanatic or Crusader.

Exorcism I'm not so sure of. What happens to the purge tokens after they are played? Are they left on the board? Can those regions be conquered?



Thanks for the good feedback
To answer your questions:


Yes the Gargoyles have a similar mechanic to the elves in that they won't die.
And to be honest I was not planning for it to work in decline from the begining, but i thought they became to similar to the elves
Having the decline power makes it very interesting though since it makes for a bit more advanced tacticts when playing your "second" race. With the possibility of "freeing" conquered gargoyles instead of attacking "new" regions.


Hehe good that you like the idea, I thought religious was a kind of ironic and fun name for the special power, it just feels very Small Worldy but anyone who wants to play with these powers can ofcourse name them whatever they want.


Again you are thinking much like me
I was originally planning for the purged regions to be un-inhabitable until the exorcists next turn (making them basically the offensive versions of heroic badges), but then changed it so that the exorcists can make an instant "easy" conquer of the purged regions. I did this to balance the power maybe it wasn't the right choice when you mention it.



Hopefully this asnwers most your questions
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Marc Du Rietz
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Gumsch wrote:
I also like the Gargoyle idea.It's a pretty creative defensive ability that really feels thematic.

Though I like the slightly fanatical touch of Purge I'm afraid that it's simply a bit overpowered. The immediate redistribution of the purged tokens is a drawback - but ... I'll have to join Catcube's question. What happens with the purge tokens?
I'm guessing that you don't intend to turn purge into a rabid-dragonmaster ability, so I'll wager that you can't conquer purged regions yourself. And that, eventually, the purged tokens are supposed to be removed. Still ... sounds like a very powerful, potentially problematic ability. If the purged regions are supposed to serve as a temporary roadblock, you could easily block chokepoints - in addition to eliminating well defended enemy fortresses.

Religious sound quite good, I suppose. Originally I considered it a bit bland, just another type of fortress - but after thinking a little on it, I actually like it more and more.



Nice that you like the gargoyles, but i'm afraid i didn't explain the exorcists well enough.

When purging a region with an active race in it, the tokens gets re-deployed instantly, that is no token is lost and they are back on the board before the exorcists next move. Though it's a great way of forcing players out of forts. and such. And ofcourse a good special to pick when annoying declined trolls have taken over the mountains


This should fill in the gaps for new readers i hope
 
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Travis Hall
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Steek wrote:
Gargoyles (4 + 9 stoneform tokens)

When the enemy conquers one of your regions, return one gargoyle token to the tray, but pick up one stoneform token. The stoneform token is then placed at the conquered region. Gargoyles conquer regions with a stoneform token in them with one less gargoyle token than normal. After a region with a stoneform token in it gets conquered by gargoyles, you replace it with a gargoyle token. If a region with a stoneform token in it gets abandoned (that is empty) the stoneform token shall be replaced with a gargoyle token. The gargoyles ability to assume stoneform remains in decline. Stoneform tokens are immune to special attacks such as exorcism.

I see several problems with the Gargoyles.

First, what does it mean to have the stoneform ability remain while the Gargoyles are in decline? The benefit of stoneform arises when the gargoyles reconquer the region with a stoneform token, but as they are in decline, this can never occur. A straight reading and application of the ability results in doing extra mechanical work that ultimately has no effect at all on the game.

Edit: Okay, I get it now. You can get turn a stoneform token into an in-decline Gargoyle by conquering and then abandoning the region with another Race. It is still quite little effect, but not absolutely none.

Second, the mechanic violates the principle of "conquer with two tokens plus one per piece of cardboard". You don't mention anything about the stoneform token adding to the defence of a region for the conquering Race, and I would assume it would be mentioned if it were intended. If that principle were applied, the power actual negates its own benefit, because the stoneform token would add one to the defence, then the Gargoyles would use one less token because they are attacking a region with a stoneform token - two effects precisely negating each other. At the very least, you need to reword to take this into account.

Third, assuming there isn't some unmentioned benefit to the stoneform ability during decline, the Gargoyles are a strictly weaker version of the Elves. The benefit of both Races are that they never lose tokens, but the Elves can redeploy their tokens almost immediately and freely while the Gargoyles effectively leave their lost tokens behind and have to return to the same region to reclaim them. And the Elves get more tokens than the Gargoyles, in addition to their stronger power.

Steek wrote:
Religous (4 + 2 church tokens)

Once per turn the religous may build a holy church at any controlled region. The religous then fights vigorously to defend their churches. They may conquer any region adjecant to the church for one less token, and the region with the churh in it recieves a defensive bonus (+1). If conquered the church is destroyed. When entering decline the religious loose their faith and the churches are destroyed. You may place both churches in the same region for extra defense, but the conquering power doesn't stack between churches.

Compare to Commando. Both powers give -1 to conquests (and you need to include the "minimum of one token still required" wording from Commando - there's very important reasons to include that rule in every similar ability), and both powers give exactly the same number of tokens. Commando is unrestricted in application, while Religious (spellcheck is your friend, BTW) applies only in a restricted area (and never to your first conquest, because you can't build a church without a region to build it in). Religious trades away flexibility for the defensive bonus. So, the question becomes, is the flexibility lost worth about the same as the defensive bonus?

Steek wrote:
Exorcism (5 + 2 purge tokens)

Capable of purging two regions, adjacent to the exorcists, of all life per turn. All active race tokens in a purged region will be redeployed immediately. Declined race tokens in a purged region will be returned to tray (declined ghouls loose one token to the tray, the rest are redeployed).

Why does the power interact with Ghouls in a special way? It seems to me that Ghouls should act as if they were an active Race, and move away without loss, or act as if they were a declined Race, and lose tokens without moving away at all.

The general principle of declined Races is that they always have exactly one token in each region they occupy. (Modified by abilities, of course.) An exorcised Race in decline would lose its token because it cannot redeploy (as that would violate the "one token per region" principle). Ghouls in decline can redeploy, and can have more than one token per region. Thus, they should be treated like an active race for purposes of this power. That would be most in keeping with established principles of the game.

The other alternative is that you regard this as driving away active races and destroying in decline Races. You could get away with this, but it doesn't flow as elegantly from established principles.

But what you have is just a special case for the sake of a special case. That's not a good approach to take for a game like this. What happens when another ability is added to the game which interacts in an odd way with Exorcism? As much as possible, you want the special cases to be reiterations of established principles, so players can apply the same principles to get reasonable conclusions for other special cases.

When does purging occur? This should be specified. If it is any time during conquests, say so.

The purge tokens seem largely unnecessary. The effect of the purge is immediate, with no ongoing effect. There's no reason to put them on the board at all (and recall the "two tokens plus one per piece of cardboard" principle). You might want the player using the power to have the two tokens, which look different on the two sides, so that when the power is used he can turn one token over to keep count of the use; but then, Sorcerers have to keep track of their power usage, and they don't bother with such counters.

Assuming this power isn't restricted to end-of-turn use or something like that, the closest comparison to this power would be Dragon Master. Both powers give the same number of tokens. Dragon Master allows conquest with a single race token once per turn; Exorcism effectively allows conquest with two race tokens (or three for a mountainous region) twice per turn. Exorcism has a small extra advantage in that it can be used to drive enemies out of a region even if you don't want to conquer it, but this will usually be done only if the Exorcism Race wants to make less than two conquests in a turn. This might be a fair trade-off; it's a little hard to say.

Oh, and the adjective should be used as the name of this power. "Exorcism Elves"? No. "Exorcist Elves"? Better.
 
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Blue Jackal
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First I'd like to say I really like Religious.

Wraith wrote:

Compare to Commando. Both powers give -1 to conquests (and you need to include the "minimum of one token still required" wording from Commando - there's very important reasons to include that rule in every similar ability), and both powers give exactly the same number of tokens. Commando is unrestricted in application, while Religious (spellcheck is your friend, BTW) applies only in a restricted area (and never to your first conquest, because you can't build a church without a region to build it in). Religious trades away flexibility for the defensive bonus. So, the question becomes, is the flexibility lost worth about the same as the defensive bonus?


Good point when comparing Religious to Commando. How much would bumping Religious up to 5 help?

Another thought is to make Religious give a -2 to adjacent conquests and maybe +2 to defense. I'd also only allow one church on the board at the time... though at this point, it seems like the power needs to be re-themed.

Maybe you could have Swarming as a special power: Once during your turn, you may place your Swarm token in one of your occupied regions. This region gains +2 defense and all adjacent regions require 2 fewer tokens to conquer (minimum 1.)

You don't get the benefit while conquering your very first region for the race... and I'm not sure if it's over-powered or not. You're limited to adjacent regions, unlike say, Werewolf. So I think it might be OK. I might also say that if the Swarm Region is conquered, the Swarm token is permanently lost.

Alternately, maybe it'd be better/easier/more balanced if you could only place the Swarm token at the start of your turn. This either means the first turn has no benefit, or your Swarm token appears in (and applies to?) the region you first conquer.

This is different from your original idea, but IMO, not that different. This leads me to suggest that if you want to keep your original idea, you could up the number of Church tokens? Maybe to 4 (or 6, like Fortresses, I guess.) I don't think this would be overpowered, since, IMO, Commando still seems better. It also seems more appropriate to have more Churches on the board... with 2, you're going to be destroying churches often, which kind of clashes with the theme a little.
 
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Ben Bannon
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anybody have any ideas for graphics for the gargoyles and the stoneforms? I really love the idea for the race
 
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Ben Bannon
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this one for race token



and this one for stone form? can anybody do anything with these, or create something better?
 
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Marc Du Rietz
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Okey, I'm back for another Q & A

You all make valid points, but I'll try to answer with the best possible solutions accordingly to me

As Travis said; the Gargoyles are basicly a version of the elves, just a bit worse, except of the decline ability. That the ability is left in decline is a significant plus. Since the stoneform tokens don't count as a defensive token for the race occupying the region with a stoneform token in it (the stoneform Gargoyle being a statue not capable too defend a region). The player who have Gargoyles in decline can free them instead of conquering "new" regions and there by they will have one "extra" token to use the next round (since it does not have too occupy the "new" region) This effect adds up. But it may be a good idea to increase the Gargoyles from 4 to 5.


About the Religious* (thanks for pointing that out) power.
It's again as Travis says it's a veriation of commando, since commando in the present game is one of the better psecial powers I didn't see any problems with letting Religious be slightly less powerfull. Since it's still better than let's say cursed and in my opinion alchemist etc.


Again my flawed english is corrected, didn't know which to choose since neither exorcism or exorcists fits perfectly
The tokens are a left-over from the time they where ment to block regions, I'll get rid of them.
Yes you can purge any adjacent region at any time of your turn, and not just the end.
The problem with the Ghouls is that i don't want purging to target/benefit any one race. If all ghouls would be returned to the tray after a purging it would be too strong, but if none of the ghouls die, ghouls gain a special advantage over other races.
So it's a bit of a greyzone, it's a hard nut to crack i'll admit that.


You could choose to exclude excorists from your game when playing with beginners, but when playing with anyone who have played the game once or twice the ghoul rule shouldn't be too hard to remember.
If i hade to choose one of the alternatives i would go with that all ghouls are redeployed.


This should cover most questions for now.
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Travis Hall
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Steek wrote:
As Travis said; the Gargoyles are basicly a version of the elves, just a bit worse, except of the decline ability. That the ability is left in decline is a significant plus.

I suspect you are overestimating that plus. Since a stoneform token will always be in an occupied region, regaining each one is quite a significant operation. The active Race has to conquer an occupied region and then abandon it for the player to get a benefit.

Steek wrote:
Since it's still better than let's say cursed

Be very careful with comparisons to Cursed. Cursed will usually be a very good power for the player who finally takes it. It just sucks royally for those who have to skip over it in the wait for it to become good.

Steek wrote:
Again my flawed english is corrected, didn't know which to choose since neither exorcism or exorcists fits perfectly

"Exorcist" is an adjective as well as a noun, so is the correct word here. "Exorcists" is only a (plural) noun, so does not fit.

Steek wrote:
The problem with the Ghouls is that i don't want purging to target/benefit any one race.

Small World strategy is all about recognising the special ways that abilities combine. If we were to eliminate synergistic and antagonistic effects, much of the richness of the game would be lost. You are better off letting the powers interact naturally, and letting players recognise and respond to the fact that Ghouls fare better than typical declined Races against Exorcist/Purging.
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Marc Du Rietz
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So, we meet again Travis

The plus is significant, let's say that 3 declined gargoyles have been conquered and therefor assumed stoneform.
If I choose to "reconquer" those regions instead of conquering regions with the same amount of opponent tokens in them (not containing gargoyles). You will have a stronger defense for your active race tokens, and you will have 3 more tokens to use the next round since they are not left as the last defenders. All this adds up.
I'm not going to change the Gargoyle decline ability.

About Religious, it's still one of the stronger/better specials in the game, so I see it as quite well-balanced.

Name changed to exorcist, so that's taken care of

And about the purging of ghouls, it wouldn't be a huge bonus for them to re-deploy all tokens instead of losing one, so I think I'll fix that.

Your good at finding problems needing fixing, so keep em coming
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Travis Hall
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Steek wrote:
The plus is significant, let's say that 3 declined gargoyles have been conquered and therefor assumed stoneform.
If I choose to "reconquer" those regions instead of conquering regions with the same amount of opponent tokens in them (not containing gargoyles). You will have a stronger defense for your active race tokens, and you will have 3 more tokens to use the next round since they are not left as the last defenders. All this adds up.

Not by the rules you have written. You have clarified that the stoneform tokens do not add to the defence of a region. Furthermore, another basic principle of Small World is that two Races controlled by the same player do not interact in any special way simply due to being controlled by the same player. If a region containing a stoneform token is occupied by an opponent's Race, the stoneform token remains a stoneform token; so, applying the principle I've just pointed out, a region containing a stoneform token which is occupied by another Race controlled by the same player who controls the Gargoyles would also remain a stoneform token. Thus, the player gets no defensive benefit for retaking the region with a stoneform token.

If you want to avoid that, you will need to write a special case into your rules.

And once again, I would advise you not to do that. It is bad to turn your additions into a hodgepodge of special cases and to violate the principles of the game.

Anyway, getting back to your rules as they are currently written, to get a benefit out of the stoneform token, the conquering player must wait until he gets the chance to abandon that region. That can't occur until the next turn.

And conquering three regions containing stoneform tokens requires an absolute minimum of nine tokens (assuming doing so in one turn, and barring applicable special abilities to reduce the commitment). It is essentially a full commitment of all a Race's resources for a turn, and that to gain three tokens with restricted use. And that's under optimal circumstances. I suspect you could generally count on at least two defenders in any region containing a stoneform token, if it is in an area subject to counterattack by Gargoyles or the active Race controlled by the player who controls in-decline Gargoyles.

Steek wrote:
I'm not going to change the Gargoyle decline ability.

And I'm not going to use the Gargoyles the Gargoyles at all, and others who read this thread are under no obligation to use the Gargoyles according to what you have written. Gargoyles, like all other custom Races, are house rules. As such, it is likely that the rules most often used for them will be those suggested by whoever makes the most convincing argument concerning best implementation.

In other words, I point these things out not so that you will change how you use Gargoyles, but so that others considering the Gargoyles can make a well-informed choice concerning how to use them.

"I'm not changing it," amounts to "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home," and in this case the other kids have a closet full of bats and balls. A well-reasoned argument in defence of your rules as they stand is likely to be more effective, and if you have that, this statement about what you won't do doesn't add to it.
 
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Marc Du Rietz
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Okey Travis this is getting old.

Ofcourse everyone can use all ameteur races and specials as they seem fit, if at all. By not changing "it" I ment not changing the original forum post (some people don't read entire threads to the bottom you know)

I was unaware that you was't allowed to desert one region during re-deployment (in our "rules" you can leave the region during re-deployment but you won't get the VC's for that region ofcourse) But as it seems those might not be the actual rules.

If you have any constructive criticism left you are more than welcome to post it. Otherwise this thread is more or less you and me writing the same things over and over again.
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Travis Hall
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Steek wrote:
I was unaware that you was't allowed to desert one region during re-deployment (in our "rules" you can leave the region during re-deployment but you won't get the VC's for that region ofcourse) But as it seems those might not be the actual rules.

Indeed, you have not been playing by the standard rules of the game. Abandonment can only occur during the Ready Your Troops phase (unless modified by a special ability).
 
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Bryan Stout
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Finally getting around to reading this.

It would be nice to write up a new version of these powers, including points not yet done by others, for example:

Quote:
Stoneform tokens do not add to a region's defense, and are immune to special attacks such as exorcism.

Quote:
They may conquer any region adjecant to the church for one less token, with a minimum of 1 token required,

Quote:
Twice during your turn, you may purge an adjacent region: all active race tokens in a that region are redeployed immediately; declined race tokens are returned to tray (declined ghouls are all re-deployed). You may purge at any point during your conquest phase.



Now for some comments of my own:

- Here is a suggested tweak to Gargoyles: if any race tokens go into decline in a region with a Stoneform token in it, all those tokens are removed and the Stoneform reverts to a Gargoyle token, active or declined as the case may be.

- Rather than "Religious", I'd prefer "Zealous"; rather than "Church" I'd prefer "Temple" or "Shrine".

- I think there should be 5 or 6 Shrines, similar to the Fortresses, and that their effect should be cumulative: if you have 2 Shrines adjacent to a region, you can conquer it with 2 less tokens than normal, with a minimum of 1 of course.

- I agree with having the Exorcist power kill off in-decline Ghouls, both because of design elegance as Travis argued, and also thematically: in-decline Ghouls are undead! Of course exorcism should kill them. Begone, ye fiends of hell!

 
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Bryan Stout
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Oh, and one final comment for the general public:

The English word meaning the opposite of "win" is spelled with ONE 'O', not two.


Thank you. I'm starting to feel haunted by all the "loose"s I'm seeing around BGG.

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Travis Hall
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Barliman wrote:
- I agree with having the Exorcist power kill off in-decline Ghouls, both because of design elegance as Travis argued, and also thematically: in-decline Ghouls are undead! Of course exorcism should kill them. Begone, ye fiends of hell!

Active Ghouls are also undead. By the thematic logic you present, active Ghouls should also be destroyed entirely.

There are obvious reasons why that is a bad idea, so this thematic argument cannot be applied.

Thematically, exorcism does not necessarily have to destroy undead. More usually, it is taken to be a ritual to expel or drive off evil spirits, not destroy them. Regarding that as the theme of the power, driving away the Ghouls (active or in decline) is perfectly thematic.
 
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Marc Du Rietz
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These are a few very good ideas for tweaks


I like the Gargoyle idea, but with those changes you still ment that stoneform tokens can be released/rescued by active gargoyles?
Other than that this tweak would fix the in decline problem. I think I'll edit with this on the original post. Thanks.


Since your not the first to complain about the name of Religious, I might have to change that too. I don't really think that the name is important since it's easily changed by each player adopting the races and powers of this forum, but obviously it will make the power more intresting at first glance.


Increasing the number of Church/Shrine/? tokens is a good fix to make the power as good as commando, but making the effect stackable will make Religious/Zealot/? to powerfull. Imagine having seafairers or gargoyles in decline and Religious Elves active (I know it's a small chance for this too happen but anyways) Still it's a good idea to up the number of church tokens, i've been thinking about this for a couple of days now.


Again, making exorcism actually kill all declined ghouls in a region would be an annoyance in game. Say that Ghouls have 4 areas on the board with 2 in each region and they are declined. You pick Exorcist Skelletons from the table and killing conquering three regions normally and purging two of the declined ghouls, earning 3 new skeletons and destroying half of the ghoulish army. That would be annoying for your opponents So i agree with Travis in this regard, better let them re-deploy all tokens.


Again thanks for some great ideas!
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Marc Du Rietz
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I still have a question still in need of answering:

Should the zealots be allowed to build temples at the begining, end or at any time of your conquest phase. At any time would be the best choice for balancing, but it wouldn't really fit thematically. Otherwise I think it should be at the begining of the conquest phase.
I think this rule would be the best option:

At the start of your conquest phase you may build a temple... When entering the map you build a temple at the first region you conquer.

Any ideas?
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Bryan Stout
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- Concerning Exorcist Skeletons, I would say that purging is not the same as conquest, and so should not count toward Skeleton growth. If you agree, it would be worth saying so in the Exorcist description.

- I really don't mind that you don't want in-decline Ghouls killed by exorcism. You can explain this by saying that races still capable of conquest are not killed -- this would include active races and in-decline Ghouls.

- If you think that building a temple (or whatever) works best when allowed any time during the turn, go ahead and allow it. I don't think it's unthematic -- those zealous people are organized and committed, and can build things very quickly.

Have fun playtesting all the different possibilities!

 
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Gumsch
Germany
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Steek wrote:
Should the zealots be allowed to build temples at the begining, end or at any time of your conquest phase.
At the start of your conquest phase you may build a temple...


Thenatically I'd go for "at the end of the conquest phase" because this would suggest a certain build time. In regarding to balance ... it would certainly weaken the ability, but I guess one could easily adjust it - e.g. through more racial tokens or temple tokens. But that's just how I would probably try to handle this - your other options are not particularly problematic either.
By the way - I support Barliman's idea of Stoneform-Gargoyles turning to Gargoyles after the tokens in their region decline. It's just such an atmospheric little touch :) Not sure how practical it is, though - I'm easily swayed by atmospheric elements ...

P.S.: I think I like the development of your abilities / race. Should be interesting to try those out. :)
 
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Marc Du Rietz
Sweden
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Concerning the purging of a region, it should not act as a conquest according to me. So there should be no extra benefit for orcs and skelletons from it. (after some carefull thinking)

And killing all in-decline ghouls I still think would be a bit to much.

Thematically i agree with Gumsch that the temples should be built at the end of your turn, but i personally wouldn't enjoy playing with a race+power combination with no significal gains until the second conquest phase. So far the best alternative is to let the zealots build the temples at any time of the conquest phase.


If someone have a possible idea for this please share


*Edit in main post: after some quick playtesting, the ability to kill off all enemy tokens that go into decline in a region with a stoneform token in it was removed. It was about as unbalanced as it possibly could be 1v1. Instead the gargoyle token number was increased to 6.

I also had to push the number of temples back down to 2 since 6 gave a much too high defensive bonus for such a potent offensive power. (The playtest was executed with the rules that you can build the temples at any time during the conquest phase)
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Illyena Corden
United States
Colorado
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Quote:
So far the best alternative is to let the zealots build the temples at any time of the conquest phase.

placing the "temple" token completely changes the value of the race on the first turn. if you dont place it, you need to give several race tokens to compensate, if you do, there may be fewer race tokens initially but more may be acquired through conversion.

I would go with "Devout" over religious or zealous, and have them build "Edifices". But I do like the game mechanic of the original "Zealot" idea. Though I was thinking of approaching it as a religious conversion rather than conquering mechanic, nothing in the game yet has any use for "sharing" land. As a power it may give 0 extra race tokens however, if one is converting one's enemies rather than destroying them, one could "convert" any tokens from regions adjacent to a temple, as long as you can have an equal number of your own race tokens, the special ability here is that it would ignore other "defense tokens", such as fortresses/mountains, etc... it would remove one existing enemy race token and replace it with your own. The 'sharing' race would be able to "drive out the converts" by reconquering the region, at the standard #tokens +2 including any that they already have on the space.
(mountain, +their existing token, + devout race token) would require them to add 2 additional race tokens during their conquest phase.
This would effectively add an additional action "convert" after "conquering" and before "redeployment"
This may cause a region to be shared, allowing both players to score VP for it. 1 temple token.
Players attempting to conquer the shared region must conquer both race tokens.

 
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