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Subject: Order of Operations in Battle Calculations rss

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Edwin Karat
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My impression of the order of operations in battle calculations (based on version 1.4 of the rules, paying close attention to page 10, and drawing a little from the forums) is as follows:

1) Use dungeon effects, in an order of your choosing, skipping any you do not want. (Note: Disease is not a dungeon effect)

2) Choose a monster. You must choose a monster, if able, but you cannot choose a monster that explicitly says the *party* may not target it. (The only example I know of is the Blink Dog. Other monsters that exclude heroes do not prevent you from targeting them. You may target a blink dog only if you can arrange to have no light penalty -- this includes light from a flaming sword you plan to equip but technically have not done so yet. That is, if you do not have enough light by the end of step 3, back up to step 2 and choose a different monster, unless all monsters are invalid targets, in which case your turn ends immediately.)

3) You equip weapons. Take into account dungeon and battle effects that change your strength. (Note that there is a small chicken-egg problem in steps 2&3. You need to choose a monster to know if there is a strength penalty to equip weapons, but you can use the light from a sword if you will equip it, but not if you don't equip it. However, I believe common sense can work through these -- if you don't have the light to attack a blink dog once you've equipped weapons back up to step 2.)

4) Total up all your bonuses to attack and magic attack, excluding heroes that cannot join the battle and unequipped weapons (and weapons equipped on heroes who cannot join the battle). Also, do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them.

5) Apply penalties, on a point-by-point basis, to reduce attack or magic attack (your choice) but neither value may go below 0 if the other is positive.

6) Halve or double or reduce to zero the attack and magic attack values (as appropriate for the abilities of the monster).

7) Sum the remaining attack and magic attack values.

8) Subtract any remaining light penalty from this total.

9) Compare this with the monster's health. If your total combined attack value equals or exceeds the health, then you win.

Note that this is my working understanding. It might be flawed, or some of the above could be worded better.

Is there anything that I missed?
 
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Ryan Metzler
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You have steps 5 and 6 reversed...that's the only flaw....reduce to zero first...then if you havea remaining attack or magic attack value above zero you must subtract from that value.
 
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Edwin Karat
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Can you elaborate?

By "reduce to zero" does that include "Magic Attack Only" cards like the Sphinx where only magic attack counts -- that is, is it illegal to apply disease to your (normal) attack and then use your full magic attack? Or do you only mean "Magic Attack Immunity"?

Also, is that only for reducing to zero or for all multiplications?

By rereading page 14 of rules version 1.4, I can see Magic Attack Immunity (and possibly Magic Attack Only) as falling under "don't add these bonuses in the first place," but I'm not sure if you mean to take the disease penalty before or after reducing by half or doubling or such.

I think if you can answer these 2 questions, it will clear up some of the outstanding confusion.

[Finally, I think I technically switched 2&3. There is the same chicken-egg problem but now if a monster reduces your strength, you may have to unequip the weapon.]
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Ryan Metzler
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karat wrote:
Can you elaborate?

By "reduce to zero" does that include "Magic Attack Only" cards like the Sphinx where only magic attack counts -- that is, is it illegal to apply disease to your (normal) attack and then use your full magic attack? Or do you only mean "Magic Attack Immunity"?

Also, is that only for reducing to zero or for all multiplications?

By rereading page 14 of rules version 1.4, I can see Magic Attack Immunity (and possibly Magic Attack Only) as falling under "don't add these bonuses in the first place," but I'm not sure if you mean to take the disease penalty before or after reducing by half or doubling or such.

I think if you can answer these 2 questions, it will clear up some of the outstanding confusion.

[Finally, I think I technically switched 2&3. There is the same chicken-egg problem but now if a monster reduces your strength, you may have to unequip the weapon.]


Haha, actually you switched around 2, 3 and 4...which is what is causing all your problems. How about I just give you a full, detailed, correct turn order? That should clear all of this up:

1. Reveal your hand

2. You may use some, none, or all of the Dungeon Effects from your cards. You are not required to use all Spells or Effects. You may equip one Weapon to each Hero, if the Strength requirements are met (see page 6). (Note: Disease is not a dungeon effect and will be applied later. Battle Effects are not dungeon effects either.)

3. Declare which Monster and rank you are attacking. You must choose a monster, if able, but you cannot choose a monster that explicitly says the *party* may not target it if you do not match the conditions described (Ex. Blink Dog requires you to have enough light to completely negate the light penalty and its additional light penalty). If you are unable to choose a monster your turn ends immediately

4. Total up all your bonuses to attack and magic attack, excluding heroes that cannot join the battle and unequipped weapons (and weapons equipped on heroes who cannot join the battle). Also, do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them. Bonuses to dwarves from edged weapons would still count in this case, but not the actual weapon damage itself.

5. Apply Modifiers which would reduce a specific type of attack to 0. This include modifiers such as Magic Attack Only, Immune to Magic Attack, etc. These are handled differently from multipliers which will be applied later. This is likely where all the confusion is arising.

6. Apply penalties (such as disease), on a point-by-point basis, to reduce attack or magic attack (your choice) but neither value may go below 0 if the other is positive. This means if magic attack or attack was previously reduced to 0, you must reduce the other value. If both values are at 0, the disease (or other attack/magic attack reducing card) has no effect.

7. Apply multipliers (halving attacks, doubling attacks)

8. Sum the remaining attack and magic attack values.

9. Subtract any remaining light penalty from this total.

10. Compare this with the monster's health. If your total combined attack value equals or exceeds the health, then you win. Place the monster in your discard pile, receive spoils, and refill and shift the hall. If your total combined attack is lower than the monsters health, you loose. Place the attacked monster on the bottom of the dungeon deck, refill and shift the hall. After the hall has been refilled and shifted, resolve any potential breach effects caused by a monster moving into rank 1.

11. End your turn by discarding all of your remaining cards in hand to your discard pile and drawing 6 new cards.

That is the correct order! Its a combination of your rules and version 1.4 of the rules extended quite a bit for clarification. Hope this clears it up!

~ Ryan
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Jonas
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This was a pretty clear explanation, why isn't it this way in the rule book?

Also is there plans to put out a FAQ?
 
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Edwin Karat
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slaqr wrote:

1. Reveal your hand

2. You may use some, none, or all of the Dungeon Effects from your cards. You are not required to use all Spells or Effects. You may equip one Weapon to each Hero, if the Strength requirements are met (see page 6). (Note: Disease is not a dungeon effect and will be applied later. Battle Effects are not dungeon effects either.)

3. Declare which Monster and rank you are attacking. You must choose a monster, if able, but you cannot choose a monster that explicitly says the *party* may not target it if you do not match the conditions described (Ex. Blink Dog requires you to have enough light to completely negate the light penalty and its additional light penalty). If you are unable to choose a monster your turn ends immediately

4. Total up all your bonuses to attack and magic attack, excluding heroes that cannot join the battle and unequipped weapons (and weapons equipped on heroes who cannot join the battle). Also, do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them. Bonuses to dwarves from edged weapons would still count in this case, but not the actual weapon damage itself.

5. Apply Modifiers which would reduce a specific type of attack to 0. This include modifiers such as Magic Attack Only, Immune to Magic Attack, etc. These are handled differently from multipliers which will be applied later. This is likely where all the confusion is arising.

6. Apply penalties (such as disease), on a point-by-point basis, to reduce attack or magic attack (your choice) but neither value may go below 0 if the other is positive. This means if magic attack or attack was previously reduced to 0, you must reduce the other value. If both values are at 0, the disease (or other attack/magic attack reducing card) has no effect.

7. Sum the remaining attack and magic attack values.

8. Subtract any remaining light penalty from this total.

9. Compare this with the monster's health. If your total combined attack value equals or exceeds the health, then you win. Place the monster in your discard pile, receive spoils, and refill and shift the hall. If your total combined attack is lower than the monsters health, you loose. Place the attacked monster on the bottom of the dungeon deck, refill and shift the hall. After the hall has been refilled and shifted, resolve any potential breach effects caused by a monster moving into rank 1.

10. End your turn by discarding all of your remaining cards in hand to your discard pile and drawing 6 new cards.

That is the correct order! Its a combination of your rules and version 1.4 of the rules extended quite a bit for clarification. Hope this clears it up!

~ Ryan


Thank you! I think this will clear up a lot of the remaining confusion.
 
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James Cartwright
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I'm beginning to think the Rules should now become 'Thunderstone for Dummies'

I mean, really, "do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them" did this need explaining??

This is how we play from rules V1.4

- first check hand to see if you have enough attack to kill a monster before entering the dungeon, including factoring in light penalty and monster battle effects

- enter dungeon, kill monster.

simple.

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Edwin Karat
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Actually, I just noticed that the multiplier step (doubling or halving) step was left off. I presume that happens between steps 6 and 7? (If it were before step 6, then it would be at the same time as reduction to zero, and you said it happened later. However, it only makes sense to halve the magic attack value before adding them together. That leaves it between steps 6 and 7.)
 
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Yusuke Hasegawa
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I've always played as light penalty adds to the monsters toughness. It doesn't effect the attack values except that you need 2 more for each penalty.
 
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Chris Zogheib
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Rindel wrote:
I'm beginning to think the Rules should now become 'Thunderstone for Dummies'

I mean, really, "do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them" did this need explaining??

This is how we play from rules V1.4

- first check hand to see if you have enough attack to kill a monster before entering the dungeon, including factoring in light penalty and monster battle effects

- enter dungeon, kill monster.

simple.



That is a simplified version that would make things easier but in reality there is more to it than that. First you are forgetting two important strategies:

1) You reveal your hand and resolve as many dungeon effects as you want. This may mean you are drawing more cards. So the attack rating you had at the start of combat may actually go up.

2) You can attack a monster, assuming you are allowed, with less attack rating than its defense. If you do, the monster goes to the bottom of the monster deck and gets replaced.

Next there are more complicated scenarios than simply adding your attack, subtracting your diseases and going to fight.

Your hand includes 3 disease, 1 assassin with 2 attack, 1 wizard with 2 magic attack, 1 level 2 magician with 2 magic attack that doubles magic attack. You are attacking a Sphinx. The problem people have is deciding whether or not they can give all 3 disease to the physical attack leaving the magic attack at 4 which would then be doubled to 8, enough to kill the Sphinx. It may seem simple to some to assume that you cannot go below 0 physical attack but some people thought you could. Enough people asked for a clarification that they were given one. They were not being stupid, they were actually being intelligent if the rules allowed that.

If you could bring the physical attack below 0 then you would have 2 physical and 4 magical before multipliers. You would stack the 3 diseases against the 2 physical bringing your physical attack to -1. Your magic attack of 4 would be doubled to 8 which is enough to kill the Sphinx.

The real rule is you cannot bring either forms of attack below 0. If one is 0, negatives apply to the other one. So the first 2 diseases would bring your physical attack to 0. The next one would reduce your magical attack to 3. Doubled that would be 6. Not enough to kill the Sphinx.

It really only gets complicated when one form of attack goes below 0 and there is an effect that involves a multiplier or or immunity. So it is relatively rare. But the clarification allows people to resolve the issue without having to decide on the fly at a game.
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James Cartwright
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True, there are always rules problems in any game. With this game however, folks just seem to be coming up with more and more elaborate rare issues just to see how the designers will react I think.

I just never assumed you could go below zero with an attack and played accordingly.

Like I said though, the explaining of the rules seems to be going too far. The rulebook is soon going to be pages and pages long just because gamers seem to what every little detail of this game explained to them.

I'm waiting for the rule at the start of the book that says =

"remember to take your new cards out of their plastic wrappers other wise playing with them and shuffling them will be difficult"shake
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John Anderson
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Rindel wrote:
True, there are always rules problems in any game. With this game however, folks just seem to be coming up with more and more elaborate rare issues just to see how the designers will react I think.
That's kind of true, but with enough plays these "rare" issues will actually happen quite a bit. I haven't really run into situations where the EXACT order of operations matters yet, but there are some situations where it does matter, and when it happens I'd rather not have to guess about how to do it.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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karat wrote:
Actually, I just noticed that the multiplier step (doubling or halving) step was left off. I presume that happens between steps 6 and 7? (If it were before step 6, then it would be at the same time as reduction to zero, and you said it happened later. However, it only makes sense to halve the magic attack value before adding them together. That leaves it between steps 6 and 7.)


Correct, i wrote this while tired....fixing it now
 
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Chris Keates
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slaqr wrote:

Haha, actually you switched around 2, 3 and 4...which is what is causing all your problems. How about I just give you a full, detailed, correct turn order? That should clear all of this up:

1. Reveal your hand

2. You may use some, none, or all of the Dungeon Effects from your cards. You are not required to use all Spells or Effects. You may equip one Weapon to each Hero, if the Strength requirements are met (see page 6). (Note: Disease is not a dungeon effect and will be applied later. Battle Effects are not dungeon effects either.)

3. Declare which Monster and rank you are attacking. You must choose a monster, if able, but you cannot choose a monster that explicitly says the *party* may not target it if you do not match the conditions described (Ex. Blink Dog requires you to have enough light to completely negate the light penalty and its additional light penalty). If you are unable to choose a monster your turn ends immediately

4. Total up all your bonuses to attack and magic attack, excluding heroes that cannot join the battle and unequipped weapons (and weapons equipped on heroes who cannot join the battle). Also, do not include attack or magic attack bonuses from edged weapons if the monster is immune to them. Bonuses to dwarves from edged weapons would still count in this case, but not the actual weapon damage itself.

5. Apply Modifiers which would reduce a specific type of attack to 0. This include modifiers such as Magic Attack Only, Immune to Magic Attack, etc. These are handled differently from multipliers which will be applied later. This is likely where all the confusion is arising.

6. Apply penalties (such as disease), on a point-by-point basis, to reduce attack or magic attack (your choice) but neither value may go below 0 if the other is positive. This means if magic attack or attack was previously reduced to 0, you must reduce the other value. If both values are at 0, the disease (or other attack/magic attack reducing card) has no effect.

7. Apply multipliers (halving attacks, doubling attacks)

8. Sum the remaining attack and magic attack values.

9. Subtract any remaining light penalty from this total.

10. Compare this with the monster's health. If your total combined attack value equals or exceeds the health, then you win. Place the monster in your discard pile, receive spoils, and refill and shift the hall. If your total combined attack is lower than the monsters health, you loose. Place the attacked monster on the bottom of the dungeon deck, refill and shift the hall. After the hall has been refilled and shifted, resolve any potential breach effects caused by a monster moving into rank 1.

11. End your turn by discarding all of your remaining cards in hand to your discard pile and drawing 6 new cards.

That is the correct order! Its a combination of your rules and version 1.4 of the rules extended quite a bit for clarification. Hope this clears it up!

~ Ryan


Ryan, thanks for this detailed explanation.

I just have one sticking point, and I apologize in advance if it's totally obvious and my brain just isn't working today

At the end of step 2, you've drawn any extra cards that may have come from dungeon effects. And even though you do not formally calculate disease/battle effects until a later step, you could do the math in your head and essentially know what monster your party is capable of killing, yes?

So in step 3, I must choose a monster if "able"--does that mean I must choose any monster where my party meets the conditions described, even if I know (after doing calculations in my head) that the battle will result in me not defeating the monster?

I guess I'm just trying to think of a scenario mentioned at the end of step 3, in which I am unable to choose a monster and my turn ends immediately (and no monster goes to the bottom of the deck).
 
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Jonas
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The scenario he is referring to is probably if there is a 3 blink dogs (taking up the hall), and you have insufficient light to attack. That would be the only scenario where you couldn't attack period.
This would happen if let's say you played an ability to put a monster at the bottom of the deck and you pulled out a 3rd blink dog, and so you can no longer attack, wheras before you could of but you maybe tried to bring out a weaker monster.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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themothman421 wrote:

At the end of step 2, you've drawn any extra cards that may have come from dungeon effects. And even though you do not formally calculate disease/battle effects until a later step, you could do the math in your head and essentially know what monster your party is capable of killing, yes?

So in step 3, I must choose a monster if "able"--does that mean I must choose any monster where my party meets the conditions described, even if I know (after doing calculations in my head) that the battle will result in me not defeating the monster?

I guess I'm just trying to think of a scenario mentioned at the end of step 3, in which I am unable to choose a monster and my turn ends immediately (and no monster goes to the bottom of the deck).


Right, you are free to calculate ahead of time. Additionally, you may choose a monster for which you meet the conditions but cannot actually defeat (thus the part about losing to a monster).

The only scenario in which you find yourself completely unable to attack would be the one that Jonas described. I hope this covers everything.
 
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Ryan I took your Battle Order and made a PDF out of it for easy reference and uploaded it here to the files section so others can use it also. Thanks for the clarifications!
 
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Lee Valentine
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slaqr wrote:
That is the correct order! Its a combination of your rules and version 1.4 of the rules extended quite a bit for clarification. Hope this clears it up!

~ Ryan



That looks pretty useful on first glance. It should have been in the rulebook. It clears up some potential questions. Thanks again.

Lee
 
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Dicky P
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This thread/and output is for me one of the most useful. Thank you to all the above.

I just have one observation... oh dear....

I was quite surprised not to see the term "Battle Effect" in the above, and this then got me thinking about where this should properly be included (given the emphasis of this "term" in the rules).

The 1.4 ruleset at Pg 4. Step 4(b) would seem to suggest that Battle Effects are resolved after you have calculated your total attack value (etc).

However it seems to me that "Battle effect" could pretty much be a floating modifier (depending on its effect) and therefore doesn't fit in the above scheme easily.

This is supported by the later words (pg 11)

"However, the Battle Effects of the Monster you are fighting resolve either during or at the end of the battle."


If this is right, is it effectively up to the user to then consider/decide where the battle effect best fits/impacts in the order of play described? If so this seems very woolly to me. That said with the current cards/rule explanations it is pretty obvious for most battle effects (I hope!)

Sorry if I am missing something here....

[Edit: typo]
 
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chessduffer wrote:
The scenario he is referring to is probably if there is a 3 blink dogs (taking up the hall), and you have insufficient light to attack. That would be the only scenario where you couldn't attack period.
This would happen if let's say you played an ability to put a monster at the bottom of the deck and you pulled out a 3rd blink dog, and so you can no longer attack, wheras before you could of but you maybe tried to bring out a weaker monster.


There is only 2 blink dogs so the only scenario I could see is 2 blink dogs and the thunderstone where you could not attack and your turn would just end.
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Boom04 wrote:
?? Don't understand your post

I apologize for the confusion.
 
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Boom04 wrote:
I was quite surprised not to see the term "Battle Effect" in the above, and this then got me thinking about where this should properly be included (given the emphasis of this "term" in the rules).

The 1.4 ruleset at Pg 4. Step 4(b) would seem to suggest that Battle Effects are resolved after you have calculated your total attack value (etc).

However it seems to me that "Battle effect" could pretty much be a floating modifier (depending on its effect) and therefore doesn't fit in the above scheme easily.

This is supported by the later words (pg 11)

"However, the Battle Effects of the Monster you are fighting resolve either during or at the end of the battle."


If this is right, is it effectively up to the user to then consider/decide where the battle effect best fits/impacts in the order of play described? If so this seems very woolly to me. That said with the current cards/rule explanations it is pretty obvious for most battle effects (I hope!)

Sorry if I am missing something here....

[Edit: typo]

Seriously . . . for an effort to offer a comprehensive order of operations, there is a massive oversight leaving out battle effects, as that's where a lot of questions come up. If a monster destroys one fighter, does that fighter help at all in defeating the monster before he dies?
 
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Maaike Fest
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Blue Steel wrote:
Seriously . . . for an effort to offer a comprehensive order of operations, there is a massive oversight leaving out battle effects, as that's where a lot of questions come up. If a monster destroys one fighter, does that fighter help at all in defeating the monster before he dies?


Quote from the new rules:
Quote:
Any cards that remain in play after the preperation step of your turn (step 2) remain in effect for the duration of the battle, even if a monster's battle effect would destroy it. For example, if a hero is killed by a monster's effect, he remains until the end of the fight. This is true for all card types.
 
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