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Wars of the Roses: Lancaster vs. York» Forums » General

Subject: Gods Teeth!!! ... It's stunning to look at. rss

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Doug Adams
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I picked up a copy of this today, more by fluke than any other reason. I didn't know much about the game, apart from the Wars of the Roses theme, Australian designer... and that's about it.

I've just finished having an oggle through the box and I can't think of too many games that just floored me with presentation like this one has. Z-Man and the art team have done an amazing job with this game.

Things that jump out at me ...
- it's bloody heavy... as heavy as Tales of the Arabian Nights, perhaps?
- the mapboard is gorgeous.
- the reverse of the mapboard is gorgeous ... a black outline of England/Wales with the principle battles depicted with red or white roses.
- cards are lovely.
- the counters are lovely... I especially like the royal coinage.
- the planning boards, large and lavish.
- the best bit... the player screens are huge castles, and they aren't flimsy folded cardboard screens, these are game board thickness. No way a sneeze is going to blow these over.

Just amazing .... I hope the game plays half as well as it looks. I've read 12 pages and it sounds interesting. Secret planning to move troops, bribe nobles and bishops, all with the object of grabbing influence and the throne What's more, you have a teammate, of sorts - your Lancastrian or Yorkist "ally" (who you can go beat up). Rules seem clean so far ... although can you "double defend" against bribery by placing more than one white cube on a disk? I assume not...

Gripes.... well, I can't fit the board and the four castles on my table. It has a very large footprint... still, it's got me eager to run the Woodevilles out of town, trot Hastings down to Tower Green, and seize the throne.

Anyway, some photos... still can't believe how good this thing looks.















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Terry Furness
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That was my first reaction too - stunning production quality. Happy to say the gameplay lived up to the presentation.

As you guessed, you can't double bribe one of your nobles to ensure you keep them.
 
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Sean
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dougadamsau wrote:
Rules seem clean so far ... although can you "double defend" against bribery by placing more than one white cube on a disk? I assume not...


Thanks for the post and especially the pix which give the best perspective of the box-/board-sizes I've seen so far. I'm pretty excited about this game, and have a feeling it's going to surprise people (since there hasn't been a lot of hype or build-up.

Regarding the issue of defending against someone bribing your noble, the rules state:
"Players may wish to counter the threat of their Nobles defecting to an opponent by paying bribe money to them to keep them loyal. To do this, place one white Bribe Cube on an already owned Noble's Counter. This cost is one times the Control Point number on that Noble's Counter."

So, it seems you can invest in keeping a Noble loyal to your cause.

Edit: typo
 
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Terry Furness
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Question, as I understood it, wasn't can you bribe a noble to stay loyal to you but could you bribe them twice. ie: pay to place two white bribe cubes (double defend). The answer to that is no. So despite your best efforts, there will be situations where you may lose a noble, even if you've bribed them that turn.

Although, if this happens you can at least take some comfort in the fact that a LOT of money was spent on that action, reducing the funds your rivals can employ to foil your other plans
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Peter Hawes
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You are correct Terry. You may only place one white bribe cube on a Noble, Bishop or Ship Captain to keep then loyal. During playtesting we did allow 2 white or even 2 black cubes to be used. We settled on only allowing one for a few reasons.

These were treacherous times and only a handful of nobles were 100% loyal (e.g.Clifford, Hastings). Most however, looked after themselves in terms of monetary gain and self advancement and were never beyond changing allegiance. Who would imagine that Edward IV's brother Clarence, would betray the Yorkist cause and go over to the Lancastrians. Even Warwick, the greatetst magnate of the time and leader of the Yorkist cause for many years, swapped sides when it became obvious he could not profit further under Edward IV, as the Woodeville clan came up through the ranks. So Historically it fits that no noble is beyond swapping sides,

On the 1480 and 1490 turns(last 2 turns) the first placed player may be able to defend a few strong nobles (by using 2 white bribe cubes) and thus gain enough VP's and remain unassailable. We wanted there to always be a chance that a strong personality could defect. Remember it is still very difficult to cause a defection if the "owner" of that noble has placed a white bribe cube on him. No talk on tactics is allowed between players, so 2 opponents have to target the same noble and independently place black bribe cubes on him. It happens, but not too often and it takes a lot of their income.

Money was the final thing that swayed us. If 2 Yorkists happened to spend 20 pounds each we did not want this to be stopped by a Lancastrian spending 10 pounds to keep Warwick loyal. This would unbalance the game- the yorkists losing 4 times the income from their combined coffers compared to their Lancastrian opponent. There is much uncertainty in the game, so if 2 players from the same House got it right and risked bribing an expensive noble they should be rewarded.

I guess too that when you bribe somebody, that is your offer. You don't then give him a second payment. Your first up payment is the bribe. Thus you can only give one bribe cube, black or white to a personality.
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Sean
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Tezza wrote:
Question, as I understood it, wasn't can you bribe a noble to stay loyal to you but could you bribe them twice. ie: pay to place two white bribe cubes (double defend). The answer to that is no. So despite your best efforts, there will be situations where you may lose a noble, even if you've bribed them that turn.

Although, if this happens you can at least take some comfort in the fact that a LOT of money was spent on that action, reducing the funds your rivals can employ to foil your other plans


Oh, yes, I see that you're right about the op. So no double white cubes.

Would it also be accurate to say that you wouldn't ever need more than white cube anyway? I.e. if you "secure" a noble by paying him again (per the rules) can an opponent's bribe ever "trump" your white cube?
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Peter Hawes
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Just to clarify Sean: You may only play one WHITE bribe cube on a noble (or Bishop or Ship Captain) that is in your faction. This will protect the noble against an opponent who plays a BLACK bribe cube on your noble. But once played this black cube will neutralize your white bribe cube and if another oppponent was to also play a black cube against this same noble he would defect to that opponent, as the protective white cube was used against the first black bribe cube. ( A noble can only resist so much bribery before he bows to the power of money!)
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Sean
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Peter Hawes wrote:
Just to clarify Sean: You may only play one WHITE bribe cube on a noble (or Bishop or Ship Captain) that is in your faction. This will protect the noble against an opponent who plays a BLACK bribe cube on your noble. But once played this black cube will neutralize your white bribe cube and if another oppponent was to also play a black cube against this same noble he would defect to that opponent, as the protective white cube was used against the first black bribe cube. ( A noble can only resist so much bribery before he bows to the power of money!)


Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification, Peter. So, if more than 1 opponent wants your noble, you're probably going to lose him. (This probably makes for some very interesting strategizing...maybe painful.)
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Doug Adams
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Thanks for the clarification, Peter, as well as the PM which I'll get to soon.

I've now had two thorough passes through the rulebook - it's an excellent read - very clear. The white cube issue is clearly explained.

As a ex-member of the Richard III Society, can't wait to try it out.
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Fraser
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Back in the days when there were less maps we played every map back to back
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OOh, I trust this means my pre-order should be shipping real soon now.
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Gregor McNish
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Curious-- how does "just picked up by fluke" map to "first copy sold in the world?"

I believe the graphic design is by one Mr Lunch, of Adelaide.
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Terry Hogan
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Peter Hawes wrote:
Just to clarify Sean: You may only play one WHITE bribe cube on a noble (or Bishop or Ship Captain) that is in your faction. This will protect the noble against an opponent who plays a BLACK bribe cube on your noble. But once played this black cube will neutralize your white bribe cube and if another oppponent was to also play a black cube against this same noble he would defect to that opponent, as the protective white cube was used against the first black bribe cube. ( A noble can only resist so much bribery before he bows to the power of money!)


Once this has happened, what happens if yet another player plays a black cube against the same noble (i.e. 1 player defends his noble with a white cube and three try to bribe him with a black cube)? I presume the player who is last in the inverted turn order gets him. However, we also considered the possibility that the last two black cubes may cancel each other and the noble would then stay loyal to his original owner.
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Peter Hawes
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Cubillas wrote:
Once this has happened, what happens if yet another player plays a black cube against the same noble (i.e. 1 player defends his noble with a white cube and three try to bribe him with a black cube)? I presume the player who is last in the inverted turn order gets him. However, we also considered the possibility that the last two black cubes may cancel each other and the noble would then stay loyal to his original owner.


Your first hunch is correct Terry. The last player in the reverse turn order who played a black cube would get this noble. This rule is on P13 of the Rule Book: Bribery - 2nd paragraph. In game time, each player who subsequently plays a black cube will take ownership of the noble until the following player takes it with his black cube. In real time, a turn lasts 10 years, so quite possible for this noble to get "an itchy palm" again e.g. Ralph Percy "turned his coat" 3 times in one year.
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Doug Adams
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gmcnish wrote:
Curious-- how does "just picked up by fluke" map to "first copy sold in the world?"

Julian somewhere (EGF?) on MelbourneGamers said he had an autographed copy for sale.

Played it last night - very smooth game. Lots of stuff to think about, nice blend of history with excellent mechanics... this will be well received. Hint... you need money.
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Sean
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A little off-topic. But there are a couple of microbadges available now:
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