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Subject: Proposed Rule-Change 305: Turn Order and New Players rss

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Kieron Mitchell
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Proposal 305: Turn Order and New Players

This Rule amends Rule 201 by replacing it with the following:

1. Initial Play Order: Players shall initially alternate in alphabetical order by surname, taking one whole turn apiece.

2. Taking turns: Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted.

3. Becoming a player: A person who wishes to become a player must post a request in the signup thread. Unless a member of the Cabal objects within 24 hours, he will be added to the play order two spots prior to the current player (not by surname). If there is an objection, then he may only join the game if a simple majority of the Cabal agrees.

3.1 Initial Score: When a new player joins, his starting score is the median of all player's scores. When a player who previously quit or forfeited rejoins, his new starting score is equal to the lowest score of all current players.

4. Precedence: To the extent of any conflict, this rule takes precedence over all other rules.

5. Rule 204 Abeyance: For purposes of scoring on the turn this rule passes, Rule 204 is ignored.

5. Definitions: Definitions in one rule apply to the use of that term in all rules.

5.1 Signup Thread: The Starting up a new game of Nomic! thread in the forum.

5.2 The Cabal: A group with an initial membership of any player who votes in favor of this proposal. If and only if a person leaves the game (that is, becomes a non-player), they are no longer a member of The Cabal. If at any point the are no players in The Cabal, all current players become members of The Cabal.

5.3 Player: A person can voluntarily cease being a player by making a post in the forum to that effect.

5.4 The Forum: The Nomic » Forums » Play By Forum section on boardgamegeek.com.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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Deadline for me to close debate is Feb. 12th, 2:18pm ET.

On Feb. 12th at 2pm ET, whatever my last post of the proposal is becomes the final form of the proposal and I call the end to debate and the beginning of voting (unless I call an end sooner).
 
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I would vote no because I dislike proposals that offer bribes for voting for them. I also dislike the idea of the Cabal in general. New players should be welcomed, not penalized for coming to the game late.
 
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Ken H.
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Peristarkawan wrote:
I would vote no because I dislike proposals that offer bribes for voting for them. I also dislike the idea of the Cabal in general. New players should be welcomed, not penalized for coming to the game late.


I'm in favor of the proposal, but I agree with the bribe being a problem. If we go with the Cabal, it should consist of all current players, not just players who vote for the proposal. That's a road we shouldn't go down, akin to a proposal that says "All players except Kieron gain 100 points".

Also, I'm still not satisfied with the turn order variation. If a player returns to the game after leaving, he should be placed in his original turn order position. Use the "two slots earlier" rule only for truly new players.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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Ok, now:

Proposal 305: Turn Order and New Players

This Rule amends Rule 201 by replacing it with the following:

1. Initial Play Order: Players shall initially alternate in alphabetical order by surname, taking one whole turn apiece.

2. Taking turns: Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted.

3. Becoming a player: A person who wishes to become a player must post a request in the signup thread. Unless a member of the Cabal objects within 24 hours, a. a brand-new player will be added to the play order two spots prior to the current player (not by surname), b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order. If there is an objection, then he may only join the game if a simple majority of the Cabal agrees.

3.1 Initial Score: When a new player joins, his starting score is the median of all player's scores. When a player who previously quit or forfeited rejoins, his new starting score is equal to the lowest score of all current players.

4. Precedence: To the extent of any conflict, this rule takes precedence over all other rules.

5. Rule 204 Abeyance: For purposes of scoring on the turn this rule passes, Rule 204 is ignored.

5. Definitions: Definitions in one rule apply to the use of that term in all rules.

5.1 Signup Thread: The Starting up a new game of Nomic! thread in the forum.

5.2 The Cabal: A group with an initial membership of any player who votes for or against this proposal. If and only if a person leaves the game (that is, becomes a non-player), they are no longer a member of The Cabal. If at any point the are no players in The Cabal, all current players become members of The Cabal.

5.3 Player: A person can voluntarily cease being a player by making a post in the forum to that effect.

5.4 The Forum: The Nomic » Forums » Play By Forum section on boardgamegeek.com.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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The Cabal
I am willing to "go with the majority" on the cabal...so...

1. If you LIKE the cabal idea, thumb this post.
2. If you don't like the cabal idea, please reply to that effect.

If most of you don't like the idea, I'll change it to only apply to people who are attempting to re-join the game (we need it, to keep people from "gaming" the rule in the way Rubric is suggesting). That way, new players can just join...
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Ian Kelly
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I don't like the cabal idea. However, I would be willing to go along with it if it included a way for new players to join the Cabal after establishing themselves as interested players. As the proposal stands, if the Cabal were at some point reduced to one or two players, those players would effectively have veto power over new players attempting to join.
 
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Kayl
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305.1 Ok
305.2 Ok
305.3 Make all references to Cabal read "all current players" then ok. Quod vide.
305.3.1 Sure
305.4 No way. While I don't oppose it here, I oppose the wording in general. Too many rules like this and there'd be an easy contradiction. How about something to the affect of "over all rules in existence when this proposal was passed."
305.5 I'm a proud parent!
305.5 Renumber to be 305.6, et seq
305.5.2

Peristarkawan wrote:
I would vote no because I dislike proposals that offer bribes for voting for them.


Ditto.

I dislike the idea of a "Cabal" based on seniority.

A committee whose purpose is expedite a range of matters made up of people with a demonstrated policy of expediency, engagement and "good faith" (even in matters they didn't particularly like), I can see voting for something like that.

305.5.x (other than 2) Ok

And for the love of god, all references to date and/or time shall be in server time!
 
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Ken H.
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kayl wrote:
How about something to the affect of "over all rules in existence when this proposal was passed."


The only thing it really needs to take precedence over is Rule 204. So, even your revision is still overly broad (although I'm not really opposed to the original language anyway).

Taking precedence over future rules does have a use though. If rule numbers always stayed the same, there would be no use, because an earlier rule would naturally take precedence over a later rule without needing to claim precedence. But, if we ever go to amend this rule, it would get a higher number, and that might change the effect of the rule in unintended ways. Of course, we could just worry about that when it comes time to amend it (if ever).

Quote:
A committee whose purpose is expedite a range of matters made up of people with a demonstrated policy of expediency, engagement and "good faith" (even in matters they didn't particularly like), I can see voting for something like that.


Interesting.

Quote:
And for the love of god, all references to date and/or time shall be in server time!


Maybe add this idea to the Definitions section, so it doesn't have to be stated in every rule.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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kayl wrote:
[snip]

And for the love of god, all references to date and/or time shall be in server time!


So...what is the server time? Just post the current server time and from then on we'll use it...
 
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Actually, that was kind of a joke. It's easy enough to figure out. I just saw the eastern time reference next to the central time stamp of the post. No worries either way.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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kayl wrote:
Actually, that was kind of a joke. It's easy enough to figure out. I just saw the eastern time reference next to the central time stamp of the post. No worries either way.


Seriously, how do I figure it out? My posts all show my local time, which is what I assume everyone sees (that is, I assume that everyone sees a different post time).
 
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Shanya Almafeta
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I'm not in favor of adding 'The Cabal'... both in terms of adding a 'second tier' of players, and in terms of adding a new term that could be defined.
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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Ok, Cabal removed...here is the current version:

Quote:

Proposal 305: Turn Order and New Players

This Rule amends Rule 201 by replacing it with the following:

1. Initial Play Order: Players shall initially alternate in alphabetical order by surname, taking one whole turn apiece.

2. Taking turns: Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted.

3. Becoming a player: A person who wishes to become a player must post a request in the signup thread. Unless a current player objects within 24 hours, a. a brand-new player will be added to the play order two spots prior to the current player (not by surname), b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order. If there is an objection, then he may only join the game if a simple majority of current players agree.

3.1 Initial Score: When a new player joins, his starting score is the median of all player's scores. When a player who previously quit or forfeited rejoins, his new starting score is equal to the lowest score of all current players.

4. Precedence: To the extent of any conflict, this rule takes precedence over rules currently in effect.

5. Rule 204 Abeyance: For purposes of scoring on the turn this rule passes, Rule 204 is ignored.

6. Definitions: Definitions in one rule apply to the use of that term in all rules.

6.1 Signup Thread: The Starting up a new game of Nomic! thread in the forum.

6.2 Player: A person can voluntarily cease being a player by making a post in the forum to that effect.

6.3 The Forum: The Nomic » Forums » Play By Forum section on boardgamegeek.com.
 
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Ian Kelly
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kieron wrote:
b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order.


This could be ambiguous. Suppose the play order is A B C, and player B leaves. Then players D and E join the game, such that the play order becomes A D E C. Then player B rejoins. Will B then be between A and D, between D and E, or between E and C?
 
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Ken H.
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Peristarkawan wrote:
kieron wrote:
b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order.


This could be ambiguous. Suppose the play order is A B C, and player B leaves. Then players D and E join the game, such that the play order becomes A D E C. Then player B rejoins. Will B then be between A and D, between D and E, or between E and C?


Doh... good point. A judge could easily work that out on a case-by-case basis, but it may be that we are just over-complicating this. Maybe just go by surname period. If somebody tries to "game" it by joining in right as their turn would begin, then we just object to their joining, and invite them to rejoin in a few days.

Edit: (unrelated to the above) Not being a statistician, I have to ask: is "median" a clear enough term? I'm not sure how it works when there are ties (like what is the median of 1, 2, 3, 3, 3?)

Also, I do find this clause irritating, because it will most likely have new players start with a score higher than mine (maybe not right now, but within a few weeks probably).
 
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Malachi Brown
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Mean: normal average

Median: middle number of range (the tricky situation is when there are an even number of items in the range and the two in the middle are different, e.g. {1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6}, often calculated by finding the mean of the two numbers in the middle)

Mode: the number that occurs most often in the range. (This can have more than one value.)

 
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Malachi Brown
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Oh, and just to be clear, "middle" is not by value it's by ordinal position after the numbers are sorted. The median of {1, 2, 3, 3, 3} is 3.
 
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Drew Spencer
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Rubric wrote:
Peristarkawan wrote:
kieron wrote:
b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order.


This could be ambiguous. Suppose the play order is A B C, and player B leaves. Then players D and E join the game, such that the play order becomes A D E C. Then player B rejoins. Will B then be between A and D, between D and E, or between E and C?


Doh... good point. A judge could easily work that out on a case-by-case basis, but it may be that we are just over-complicating this. Maybe just go by surname period. If somebody tries to "game" it by joining in right as their turn would begin, then we just object to their joining, and invite them to rejoin in a few days.

Edit: (unrelated to the above) Not being a statistician, I have to ask: is "median" a clear enough term? I'm not sure how it works when there are ties (like what is the median of 1, 2, 3, 3, 3?)

Also, I do find this clause irritating, because it will most likely have new players start with a score higher than mine (maybe not right now, but within a few weeks probably).


The idea is to encourage new players to join. If the score starts spreading out, players may not want to join if they're going to start off way behind the leaders. The median score seems fair. It might be prudent to stick in the words "rounding down," just to be on the safe side.

As for the turn order issue; I don't think it's really an issue, but changing it to purely by surname would probably be okay. I thought it would be best to avoid the problem of a new player coming in and finding it their turn before they really get a feel for the game, but I guess that's not really that big a problem, either.
 
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Kayl
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kieron wrote:
Seriously, how do I figure it out? My posts all show my local time, which is what I assume everyone sees (that is, I assume that everyone sees a different post time).


Actually, now that you make me think about it, I can't say that I'm sure. Since I'm not Central Time and all BGG's timestamps are in Central Time (for me), I just assumed Central Time was BGG's server time. Like I said, it was kind of a joke. As long as any time references include a time zone, it doesn't really matter.

Peristarkawan wrote:
This could be ambiguous. Suppose the play order is A B C, and player B leaves. Then players D and E join the game, such that the play order becomes A D E C. Then player B rejoins. Will B then be between A and D, between D and E, or between E and C?


Good point. But do we want to over engineer? We could just leave it to the Judge-du-jour. Judgements like this are quick and easy. If someone starts making the Judge's life hard, that's a completely separate issue that will have to be addressed.

In general, the new wording seems doable.
 
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Good points!

I've added a section defining median, and a section to handle rounding in general. I didn't know how to elegantly solve the ABCD "play order" problem, and it shouldn't often be a problem, so I think I'll leave that up to a future judge if it ever comes up.

Quote:
Proposal 305: Turn Order and New Players

This Rule amends Rule 201 by replacing it with the following:

1. Initial Play Order: Players shall initially alternate in alphabetical order by surname, taking one whole turn apiece.

2. Taking turns: Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted.

3. Becoming a player: A person who wishes to become a player must post a request in the signup thread. Unless a current player objects within 24 hours, a. a brand-new player will be added to the play order two spots prior to the current player (not by surname), b. a re-joining player will be added to the play order retaining their prior turn order. If there is an objection, then he may only join the game if a simple majority of current players agree.

3.1 Initial Score: When a new player joins, his starting score is the median of all player's scores. When a player who previously quit or forfeited rejoins, his new starting score is equal to the lowest score of all current players.

4. Points round down: If the operation of a rule would result in awarding, deducting, or otherwise setting a number of points that is not a whole number, then the number of points awarded, deducted, or otherwise set is rounded towards zero to the nearest whole number.

5. Precedence: To the extent of any conflict, this rule takes precedence over rules currently in effect.

6. Rule 204 Abeyance: For purposes of scoring on the turn this rule passes, Rule 204 is ignored.

7. Definitions: Definitions in one rule apply to the use of that term in all rules.

7.1 Signup Thread: The Starting up a new game of Nomic! thread in the forum.

7.2 Player: A person can voluntarily cease being a player by making a post in the forum to that effect.

7.3 The Forum: The Nomic » Forums » Play By Forum section on boardgamegeek.com.

7.4 Median: To find the median, arrange all the observations from lowest value to highest value and pick the middle one. If there is an even number of observations, then there is no single middle value, so one takes the mean of the two middle values.
 
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Ken H.
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banyan wrote:
The median score seems fair.


Maybe it seems fair for the potential theoretical new players. It's not so fair for people who are already behind the curve (and especially those who didn't get the benefit of the new rule removing the unanimity requirement).
 
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Kieron Mitchell
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Rubric wrote:
banyan wrote:
The median score seems fair.


Maybe it seems fair for the potential theoretical new players. It's not so fair for people who are already behind the curve (and especially those who didn't get the benefit of the new rule removing the unanimity requirement).


Well, the median would be 0, and the average would be about 2, so it seems like you should prefer median to average.

Or are you suggesting new players start with the lowest score of everyone? That really would whack them.
 
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Ken H.
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kieron wrote:
Well, the median would be 0, and the average would be about 2, so it seems like you should prefer median to average.


I'm not talking about right now.

I'm assuming most proposals will pass, since we only need 5 or 6 votes now. That means you will get 13 points, the next player will get 14, etc. So even if my next proposal passes, I will still be over 10 points behind the median. Almafeta will be over 20 points behind.

Quote:
Or are you suggesting new players start with the lowest score of everyone? That really would whack them.


I'd settle for them starting at zero. I understand the concerns about people not wanting to join if they would be way behind, but I assume you can also understand my concern about not wanting new players to get a significant advantage over me.

 
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Instead of the median, I might recommend 3/4ths of the median (or some other fraction). That would be more fair for those behind the curve without leaving newcomers behind.
 
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