Cliff Fuller
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Before I share The Adventurers with my gaming group, I’d like to confirm that there is some non-intuitive gameplay going on regarding keeping secret the 14 Glyph Clue tiles - the four that go in the Walls Room, and the remaining 10 that are left to the side of the board near the Lava Room.

According to the official rules book and game setup:

Of the 14 Glyph Clue tiles, (4) go face down in the Walls Room + (10) face down next to the Lava Room.

The 14 Lava Room Glyph tiles go face UP on the lava room spaces (not including the two sun tiled corner spaces).

Gameplay in the Walls Room from the rules: “Decipher a Glyph: The player looks at the Glyph face of the Glyph Clue tile corresponding to the zone his figure is on, without showing it to the others, for approximately 5 seconds, then replaces it Glyph face down. This glyph designates a tile that is trapped in the lava room.” As a reminder to myself, the Clue Glyph viewed is face down, and secretly looked at.

I guess the part that rubs my brain the wrong way is thus:

If I choose to decipher glyphs in the Walls Room, I now know which Lava Tiles are trapped, which is at an advantage to other players that haven't looked.

However, If I didn’t decipher glyphs, and I stepped on a Lava Tile, andI got lucky that it wasn’t a trapped tile so gain a treasure, aren’t I looking at Glyph Clue tiles for free both while checking the Lava Tile against the Walls Room Clue Glyphs, AND among the 10 safe tiles when swapping out the "safe" yellow Mayan Number (Lava) Tile for the matching "safe" brown Mayan Number from the 10 on the side of the board?

How do people judiciously and fairly “check” if a Lava Tile corresponds to one of the four Mayan Numbers placed next to the walls room without giving away all the “secret” info due to the Glyph Clue tiles all being face down?

And IF this isn’t user error on my part (and it absolutely could be!) what does everyone do to preserve the “mystery” or identity of the 4 face down Glyph Clue tiles in the Walls Room and the 10 face down on the side of the board as the players negotiate the Lava Room and start revealing trapped/treasure tiles?

Any suggestions would be helpful, (outside of a non-player “gamemaster” that can see the ID of the tiles without unfair advantages). Or a “yup, that’s right, you’re not crazy, it’s a bit dodgy but in the spirit of the game try to be as honest as possible!”

Thanks!
 
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Dan Cain
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You give away the secret, but there you can only ever gain one treasure from each of the tiles in the lava room (there are only 10 of them in the game). Does this help the player's who did not look at the glyphs in the wall room? Sure, but they still will need to follow your lead to get out of the lava room safely. I would recommend putting the non used wall room glyph tiles in the box, without letting anyone see them at the beginning of the game.

Contrary to pre-release worries, this is not a broken mechanic.

LA
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hackryder wrote:

How do people judiciously and fairly “check” if a Lava Tile corresponds to one of the four Mayan Numbers placed next to the walls room without giving away all the “secret” info due to the Glyph Clue tiles all being face down?


If I recall correctly (and it's been a while), the numbers on the clue tiles are the part you can see publicly (you can't see the squiggly picture without deciphering). The lava room is set up the other way around, when you step on a tile you look at the back of the lava room tile to see if the number matches one of the trapped numbers (you *don't* look through the clues when you do this).

The only broken part (and it is indeed broken) is that the 14 mayan numbers are matched identically with the same squiggly pictures in every single game you play. Meaning that if you play too frequently you will know which pictures are trapped without needing to decipher at all, and with zero risk of dying in the lava room.

As lastalchemist said, the player who deciphers glyphs has a slight advantage since they won't have to wait for another player to lead them through the lava room and won't be at risk of falling into the lava.
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Cliff Fuller
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Thanks, and I maybe should not have evoked the word "broken," which is loaded and for me reserved for out-and-out negative gaming experiences. I do love this game, and given it's crackling theme recognize it as a lighter gateway for my friends who don't play heavier stuff or game more frequently.

But I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Thanks.
 
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Timothy Gallagher
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I've seen this mentioned a few times. In short, the lava room shows the glyph side and the wall room shows the number side of the four "trap" tiles. When a player steps on the lava tile, the process of checking to see if that tile is trapped is as easy as flipping it over and seeing if it's number is one of the four numbers on the board. If it's there than that character is dead.

Yes, players following that player through the lava room benefit from the fact that the previous player either spent actions to decipher the glyph in the wall room or just took a blind jump without knowing. That is what makes the whole push your luck feeling of the game work.

It plays much more intuitively than the rules let on. Don't expect a strategic brain-burner game and enjoy it for the push your luck gameplay.
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Cliff Fuller
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Re: expectations
I definitely wanted to make sure. I do need to temper expectations with one or two of my gaming group members, so they understand that this game is more about the pushing of luck, the fast gameplay, and not the brain-burning to which they/we are accustomed. Just sussing it out before this game hits the table.
 
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Steve R Bullock
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Saying a game is "broken" is like saying a house is "haunted"...

...it just can't be proven.
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Eric Engstrom
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I'm not sure I understand...but,

To fix it: Put all 14 of the lava tiles glyph side up. Put all brown tiles mayan number side up. There should be no issues?
 
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David Tolin
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cylonathalf wrote:
The only broken part (and it is indeed broken) is that the 14 mayan numbers are matched identically with the same squiggly pictures in every single game you play. Meaning that if you play too frequently you will know which pictures are trapped without needing to decipher at all, and with zero risk of dying in the lava room.


I don't necessarily disagree with you 100%, but in defense of the game you'd really have to try pretty hard to memorize all of that information. There are 14 different tiles, each with a Mayan number on one side and an ornate glyph on the other side. Some glyphs are identical to others except for *very* small omissions or alterations in the design.

The only reference to the number side is when you flip the lava tile and check its number against the numbers lined face-up beside the wall room. At that point, you'd really need to make a conscious effort to associate the number with the glyph design--an exercise that it not necessary to determine if the tile is trapped. In other words, you'd have to go out of your way to memorize it: "Ah, okay. So, the sun-looking thing with the three orbiting squares has a (fill in the number) on the other side... I'll need to remember that."

I know different people process at different speeds and in different ways, but--at least for me--it would take a ton of repeated plays to get all of that information memorized. And, to do it, I would really have to be paying attention to that specific goal (which, again, is not necessary for the gameplay as intended). At that point, I don't think it would be the fault of the game that I had "solved" that particular aspect of it. Rather, it would be my fault for setting out to ruin it for myself.

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I agree that there's a bit of a task involved in this, but I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Rather it depends on how the player prefers to process information. When I look at trap tile #7 my immediate concern is memorizing the key feature of the glyph that identifies it, this is quite naturally associated with the fact that it was trap 7 (not necessary for gameplay, except that on the next round I know I've already looked at it). I know that many players are going to ignore the number they've looked at and simply remember the position in the game at hand, but some players will find themselves doing just that.

You wouldn't need to know very much to get an advantage out of it either. The simple knowledge that one or two particular sun tiles aren't trapped could be pretty important even if you can't identify which ones are trapped.

My take-home point here is really that the game doesn't sustain frequent/repeated plays, but works as a light infrequent filler. One broken aspect doesn't ruin the whole game (at least not in this case). The gameplay just isn't deep enough to be voided by this issue.
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Alywin Fruge
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Having a few plays under my belt now, I am forced to agree that the lava tiles are a weak point in what is a very good game.

The tiles do hold complex designs but subsequent plays of the game can't help but leave you with a significant advantage in terms of recognition. Luckily, this game has a lot more moving parts than just the memorization element. Those other factors help offset any advantage from familiarity with the tiles so I'm not convinced it's a significant advantage...but it is there.

I've really wracked my brain to think of ways to "fix" this but after a lot of thought I've got bubkis (at least as far as solutions that don't stray too far from the original game design or inject other trade-offs). I can see why the designers just went with the current design as they keep to the rich theme which is the true charm of this game.

The only alternatives I've been able to come up with that remain true to the current game design all basically revolve around:
a) ratcheting up the complexity/intricacy of the glyph designs (i.e., making all the glyphs VERY similar to each other rather than having subgroups of similar tiles and/or making the differences between tiles much less obvious by using more elaborate glyph designs)
-and/or-
b) working in a some additional tile sets to allow you to swap out different sets when playing frequently.

FYI - My el cheapo house rule on lava tiles follows all the normal rules and uses the existing tile set except that when the active player decides to check a tile, they are only allowed a "fleeting glimpse":

1) have only the active player physically positioned by the board to see the tile once it is lifted (all other players move away or close their eyes or whatever),
2) one of the competing players (not the active player) picks up the tile in the exact same orientation as it currently rests on the board (again, making sure they don't look),
3) flash the glyph side (bottom) toward the active player, count to "one" (or two, or three, your call...) and then quickly return it to the board in the exact same orientation.
Note: make sure the tiles are randomly oriented when preparing the board at the start of the game

It's by no means a "fix" for the issue of being able to learn the tiles over time but I do think it keeps players steeped in the games rich theme (he/she is running to keep from getting smushed, right?) while kicking up the difficulty/anxiety factor up a bit. Plus it maybe gets you a little more life out of the original tile set until AEG or a BBG-er mre talented than me can cook up some additional glyph tile sets (hint hint hint!!!!).
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Mark Biggar
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If you were running this game as a Con tournament you'll probably want to whip up some different tiles sets just avoid someone coming prepared with the glyoh set memorized before hand, but as others have said I don't see playing this often enough to make memorizing the glyph set worth the trouble.
 
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If people really are this good at memorizing stuff, a rather complicated fix would be this....

Create a third set of tiles that are just the Mayan numbers.

Create a fourth set of tiles that are just the glyphs.

Randomly pair the two sets by creating two columns, one of glyphs, one of numbers, and placing them next to each other. Cover the whole thing.

When it comes time to look at a number's glyph or a glyph's number, use multiple sheets of cardboard to only reveal that which you need to see. For example, have one sheet of cardboard covering the glyph column, one the number column. If you are checking glyphs in the wall room pull the cover off the number side, then using two more sheets of cardboard slide them together to only reveal the space above that number's glyph....then slide out the glyph's cover to reveal the match while other players look away.

Essentially what you've done with this is replace ever looking at the back of a tile on the board with instead looking at a reference chart that changes each game.

Compicated, but if you need to fight crazy good memories there are few alternatives.

Another option would be:

Copy the current glyph sides (lava and brown) onto card stock with blank backs).

Copy the current number sides (lava and brown) onto card stock with blank backs).

Place the matching pairs of glyphs and the matching pairs of numbers in paired stacks.

Shuffle the glyph stacks.

Shuffle the number stacks.

Randomly pair the number stacks to glyph stacks and using some sort of stick-em attach them, creating a new set of randomly paired tiles.




A final option is to have a third party look at which four glyphs are trapped, then tag those somehow on the underside of the lava tiles (place a small piece of paper or post-it on every tile, writing "trap" or an X on the ones that are trapped.....that way the numbers are never looked at, there's just a trap tag or there's not. Use beads or counters to mark when a treasure has been taken so that the numbers never come into play.
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John Varan
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Wouldn't an easy fix be to simply have all the glyph symbols be identical?

Of course, I might be missing something seeing as how I've only played the game once so far...
 
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TheGreyOwl wrote:
Wouldn't an easy fix be to simply have all the glyph symbols be identical?

Of course, I might be missing something seeing as how I've only played the game once so far...


Yup, you're missing something. :-P

The idea of the glyph system is that they have to be different so that you can try to memorize them as they pair with certain Mayan numbers. If they were all the same there'd be no advantage to taking time to peek at them in the trap room.

People's issue with the system is that those with super-keen memories can potentially memorize the whole batch and gain an advantage that the game doesn't seem to intend, by design. Ideally the pairing of numbers and glyphs would be randomized each game so that memories from one game couldn't carry over to another....but it wasn't made that way.
 
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Jamey Philipp
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I think I am missing something too. The Adventurers is a light trashy theme game where your character dying might even be part of fun of the push-your-luck mechanic, right?

If anyone ever got all in yo grill about schoolin yo ass in the Adventurers as proof that he is a better gamer than you, you have my permission to kick him squarely in the nuts for being a neo-maxi-zoom-dweebie. I thought the monster racks on those chicks were a dead give-away that this wasn't a tourny play game to bring out to impress the chess and bridge club.
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Superhawk2300 wrote:
I think I am missing something too. The Adventurers is a light trashy theme game where your character dying might even be part of fun of the push-your-luck mechanic, right?

If anyone ever got all in yo grill about schoolin yo ass in the Adventurers as proof that he is a better gamer than you, you have my permission to kick him squarely in the nuts for being a neo-maxi-zoom-dweebie. I thought the monster racks on those chicks were a dead give-away that this wasn't a tourny play game to bring out to impress the chess and bridge club.


True, I don't think many (any?) are claiming it to be that sort of serious game.

I even think that "broken" may be a bit harsh now. I do think though, that a bit more fun could be squeezed out of the game if the tile number/glyph combos were randomized every game. Because there's always that guy with the "Rainman" memory in every gamer group that memorizes every tile the first time he sees it. Actually I know several types with abnormally keen memories when it comes to gaming....they're not doing it to cause grief or be jerks, its just the way their brain works, no helping it. I think it would be better and make more thematic sense if the info gleaned from peeking at tiles was "new" knowledge each game and not something you could recall from previous playthroughs....after all, the adventurers are discovering this temple for the first time, so a player shouldn't be able to remember info from a previous trip!
 
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Jamey Philipp
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jcb231 wrote:
Superhawk2300 wrote:
I think I am missing something too. The Adventurers is a light trashy theme game where your character dying might even be part of fun of the push-your-luck mechanic, right?

If anyone ever got all in yo grill about schoolin yo ass in the Adventurers as proof that he is a better gamer than you, you have my permission to kick him squarely in the nuts for being a neo-maxi-zoom-dweebie. I thought the monster racks on those chicks were a dead give-away that this wasn't a tourny play game to bring out to impress the chess and bridge club.


True, I don't think many (any?) are claiming it to be that sort of serious game.

I even think that "broken" may be a bit harsh now. I do think though, that a bit more fun could be squeezed out of the game if the tile number/glyph combos were randomized every game. Because there's always that guy with the "Rainman" memory in every gamer group that memorizes every tile the first time he sees it. Actually I know several types with abnormally keen memories when it comes to gaming....they're not doing it to cause grief or be jerks, its just the way their brain works, no helping it. I think it would be better and make more thematic sense if the info gleaned from peeking at tiles was "new" knowledge each game and not something you could recall from previous playthroughs....after all, the adventurers are discovering this temple for the first time, so a player shouldn't be able to remember info from a previous trip!


Yeah, I thought this too upon playing and there is no denying that anyone who previously played this game will have an advantage over those who have not, but thats the case with most Euro games too remember - until people get the swing of the mechanics or the cards reveal themselves, etc. all most all games give the advantage to players who played them before.

So I agree with you totally, and also agree that "broken" is incorrect. I mean theme it away if you want; the players who played before add the backgorund that they studied a similar Temple in Chac sometime before or something, if it bothers people.

And if someone is indeed bothered by it, tell them to wait by the bridge to knock the player with previous experience off!

Peace
 
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Christoph Dorn
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I don't have the game at home and i didn't play it yet. I just read the rules today. My first question after reading was the thing with the glyphs! I couldn't take a closer look to the tiles because - as i said - i do not possess the game. But my thought was quite the same: after more games you can assign a certain number to a certain glyph and so, there is no need to look at the glyphs in the wall room after a certain number of games. Well, maybe the glyphs are very similar (i don't know), but even if they are very similar, well, they are not the same and so, you can distuingish them. Maybe, you would have to put some effort in looking and memorizing them to gain an advantage in subsequent games and nobody wants to spoil the game, so nobody puts effort in it ... but, i don't like the thought that you activly have to "look away". It is like someone says to you: "Don't think of a red elephant!" Of course, you think of a red elephant .... But, well, most probably the whole point is not so important, because it is just a fast, no-brainer, fun-game. As mentioned, i haven't played it yet ...

Another question: Perhaps i didn't get it, but wouldn't it be possible somehow to change the glyphs mechanism a little bit? Would it be possible to hide all tiles beside the board? If somesone want to decipher a glyph in the wall room, he may remove the hide and look to one tile. (other players must look away or something...). but, well .... how to reveal them .... hmmm (i'm thinking while writing!)

Perhaps.....Would it be a possibility, that you do not determine the 4 "bad" tiles before the game starts, but while the game is progressing?

So when everybody is in the wall room - none (of the 4 good) tiles is determined yet.

when someone wants to decipher a glyph - he draws secretly one tile from the box. (are there exactly fourteen tiles in the box? i don't know; but it doesn't really matter). when another player wants to decipher a glyph he draws another one or can look at the tile of the first deciphering player (respective, it depends on the zone. if it's the same, he just can look at the first players tile, if it's in another zone, he draws a new tile).

... maximum 4 tiles - then all 4 bad tiles are set!

It all ends (eventually) when the first player enters the lava-room. Then he have to draw (4) minus (number of decifered tiles) new tiles. if noone have deciphered a tile yet he draws 4 tiles - look at them secretly - tells if he survives - and hide the four tiles again. (hmmm, better would be: he draws each tile separately and checks it before drawing a new one. if he dies after drawing the (e.g.) first tile, this tile is defined as a trap an no other (3) tiles will be drawn)

if e.g. two tiles were deciphered (each by another player), then he first asks the two players if he goes down - if not, he draws the third tile, if he survives, he draws the fourth tile. now, he is the "secret-keeper" of tile #3 and #4 and the other player has tile #1 and
another player keeps tile #2. if another player steps on a lava tile, the 3 "secret-keepers" have to tell him whether he is falling into the lava or not.


sorry, my english is not the best. besides, i wrote very fast, and as mentioned, i'm thinking while writing. besides, as a good (stereotype) german, i have drunken a couple of beers already ...

AND i did't play the game yet and perhaps my (chaotic) thoughts are absolute nonsens ...modest

but there have to be a more elegant way concerning the glyphs!!!!!

(I will buy the game soon - because i like the Indiana Jones-like theme very much! Besides, i like - between heavier games - those light dice-games, if they have a nice design/appearance. I must confess, sometimes i still enjoy games like "Key to the Kingdom" or something like that...) Actually, these games are just throwing dice, but with a little bit of fantasy you can dive into the theme and dramatize everything a little bit ... kids like it...me too
 
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