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Subject: "Gain" vs. "receive" dragon runes rss

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Drake Coker
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The rules go to some pains to emphasize the handling of the phrase "receive one dragon rune" and also note that this handling is distinct from some other phrases. Full text below with relevant phrases highlighted:

Whenever a player is instructed to “receive one dragon tune,” he performs the following steps:

1. Discard False Runes: The player may optionally discard up to two false rune tokens from areas he controls.
2. Receive Rune Tokens: The player then receives one dragon rune token and one false rune token and randomizes them.
3. Place Rune Tokens: The player looks at the faces of these tokens and places each token facedown in a friendly or uncontrolled area that does not contain a rune token. If there is no legal area to place one (or both) rune tokens, then the unplaced tokens are discarded faceup to the pile of unused rune tokens.

Some Season cards or Tactics cards instruct players to place (or move) rune tokens to specific areas. These cards do not use the term “receive one dragon rune” and only cause the specified tokens to be placed; the cards do not also place false runes unless specified.

Our group is split on the handling of cards that say "gain one dragon rune". Some feel that this is intended to be synonymous with "receive one dragon rune" and others not, since the phrasing is different and the rules take pains to emphasize the phrase. The counter-argument to this is the alternate rule is about placing to a specified area and "gain one dragon rune" does not specify an area.

Technically, the handling of "gain one dragon rune" is not specified in the rules.

My personal belief is "gain = receive", but what is the prevailing opinion?
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This is dealt with on page 30 of the rules in the sidebar. While not as explicit as you might like it does use quotes to try and highlight the difference:

Quote:
Some Season cards or Tactics cards instruct players to
place (or move) rune tokens to specific areas. These cards
do not use the term “receive one dragon rune” and only
cause the specified tokens to be placed; the cards do not
also place false runes unless specified.
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Steve
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I think this one couldn't really be much clearer, based on the *specific* wording in the book about the difference between the gain and receive terminology. Gain is a different wording than receive, so shouldn't have the same additional rules of adding the blank one.
 
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Tim Kelly
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Olvenskol wrote:
My personal belief is "gain = receive", but what is the prevailing opinion?


Page 30, backs this up, at least as far as "Objective Cards" are concerned. Under "Objective Cards": "He then follows the rules for gaining a Dragon Rune (including receiving one false rune, and placing the tokens in friendly or empty areas)."

TK
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garysax wrote:
I think this one couldn't really be much clearer, based on the *specific* wording in the book about the difference between the gain and receive terminology. Gain is a different wording than receive, so shouldn't have the same additional rules of adding the blank one.

I don't think the rulebook differentiates between "gaining" and "receiving". What it DOES differentiate between is "receiving" vs "placing".

I would say if something says to "gain" a rune, you do the same as receiving. If something says to "place" a rune, you are placing only one, real rune token on the board.
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We will have to differ on this one sigmazero13, as the rulebook even uses quotes around the phrase. If there was no quotes I would agree with you but they make sure to specify that the card will have this exact text, otherwise it is not treated the same.
 
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Chris J Davis
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salems lot wrote:
We will have to differ on this one sigmazero13, as the rulebook even uses quotes around the phrase. If there was no quotes I would agree with you but they make sure to specify that the card will have this exact text, otherwise it is not treated the same.


Yes, the only problem is that FFG sometimes makes mistakes...
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salems lot wrote:
We will have to differ on this one sigmazero13, as the rulebook even uses quotes around the phrase. If there was no quotes I would agree with you but they make sure to specify that the card will have this exact text, otherwise it is not treated the same.

True, but if you take the quoted text in context, it also says "and only
cause the specified tokens to be placed;"

"Gaining" means the same thing as "receiving". But the term "gaining" does not mean the same thing as "place".

Thus, even with the quoted text, that rule is mum as to which side "gaining" is on.
 
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Tim McCormley
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Olvenskol wrote:

Some Season cards or Tactics cards instruct players to place (or move) rune tokens to specific areas. These cards do not use the term “receive one dragon rune” and only cause the specified tokens to be placed; the cards do not also place false runes unless specified.

Also, there is a good objective card that says, "gain one dragon rune."

Although it seems like a bit of a nitpick, it's actually important because later in the game you start to run out of remote spaces to place the runes. They are far more vulnerable if you have to place them on the leading edge of your kingdom, especially since everyone knows it's a real rune.

Tim

Edit: replace "mission" with "good objective."
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Drake Coker
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bleached_lizard wrote:
salems lot wrote:
We will have to differ on this one sigmazero13, as the rulebook even uses quotes around the phrase. If there was no quotes I would agree with you but they make sure to specify that the card will have this exact text, otherwise it is not treated the same.


Yes, the only problem is that FFG sometimes makes mistakes...


This is, of course, one of the issues. It's routine that you need to do some reading between the lines with FFG rules. They always seem so clear at first... whistle
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Drake Coker
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So here is my argument for "gain = receive"...

The rules only explicitly cover the cases of "receive one dragon rune" and "place (or move) a dragon rune to a specific area".

Clearly "gain one dragon rune" is not precisely either of these cases. This begs the question of what you do with the runes you "gain". Place them on the map? Simply have them in your pile of other tokens? Stuff them up your opponent's nose (and if so, which opponent)? We don't know from the rules.

Since we have no procedure for them in the rules, it's reasonable to ask which procedure in the rules would seem to apply best, the "receive one rune" rule or the "place (or move) in a specific area" rule. Since "gain" and "receive" have a similar meaning, and there is no area specified, it seems most likely to me that the "receive" procedure is followed.

In addition, if we followed the "place" procedure, we still wouldn't know what to do, since the "place" procedure is for a specific area and "gain" cards don't specify an area.

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armor_11 wrote:

Also, there is an Elvish mission card...


A what?
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Ok, so here's what we have.

There are only 5 cards that say to "recieve" a Dragon Rune: Dragon Rune Discovery x2, Gifts for the Rich, Shared Fortune, and Abundance of Power. All Winter Season cards.

Two Winter Season cards say to "place" the dragon rune tokens IN SPECIFIC AREAS.


There are a BUNCH of cards that say to "gain" a Dragon Rune: All 16 objectives, the Captain of the Heroes League, and the Timmoran Shard rewards.


However, I'm now 100% convinced that "gain" = "receive".

Here's an example Objective card excerpt:
"discard this card to gain 1 dragon rune."

On page 30 under Objective Cards, though, it says:
"he may discard it to receive one dragon rune."


Thus, either "gain" means "receive", or the rulebook itself is wrong in terms of what happens when you complete an objective.
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So by this are we saying there are currently only 2 winter season cards that do not fall under this process?
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Correct; they are the only two cards which tell you to place runes in certain areas.
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Sure I can see that, and is also supported by the same rules which make a point of saying to specific areas.
I would love to find a tactics card that fits this as well but I am good with this now.

Just a poor choice of emphasis in the rules.
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There are 2 Tactics cards that deal with runes:

Favor of the Thieves Guild, but this just lets you MOVE rune tokens.

Favor of Kellos; this one gives explicit instructions for what tokens to use, and again says to "place" them in specified areas.

So there are 3 references to "place" (and that one actually does cause 2 false tokens to be placed also).
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Ok, you convinced me. Terrible, terrible rule wording from FFG if true.
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Here's the response from Corey:

"Gain 1 dragon rune is the same as "receive 1 dragon rune". I'll add this to the next FAQ."
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