Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Warhammer: Invasion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Greatswords and FAQ rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Havelock Vetinari
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Would be anybody so kind and tell me if the Greatswords get their own bonus when they enter zone? To me FAQ is not made very well...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, oddly enough, they do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Havelock Vetinari
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Blast! How dare they - vile designers! Make things such like this? I am not affraid to say: "Hello? Are you sane? This is CRAP and make no sense! And the whole concept of Tactics and Actions? Saying you can respond almost never and must show all your intentions to your opponent before anything he can do? Where is the room for twists?"

By the way thanks for your reply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Board games addict
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Its one of the rulings that we don't use. We don't think it makes sense, so we play it does not get the bonus.

The game has had some loopy rulings to be honest. We also don't play the corruption ruling according to the official rules, it makes Chaos faction and the tactic seduced by darkness way too weak.
We play that you can corrupt attackers and defenders when they are announced with seduced by darkness. It seems much more natural.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which "corruption" ruling is this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think he's talking about the fact that corrupting a unit after it's been declared as an attacker or defender doesn't stop the unit from participating in the battle, since corruption only stops a unit from being declared.

But there's nothing stopping you from corrupting units before the attacker and defenders are declared, so it doesn't really matter.

As for the Greatswords, notice that Empire units are all extremely weak. They RELY on tactics like this to be effective in the least. If you weaken these tactics, the faction becomes mostly worthless. I don't think it's fair to judge that one power as too good when most everything else they've got is pretty bad.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Havelock Vetinari
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
quinnox wrote:
Its one of the rulings that we don't use. We don't think it makes sense, so we play it does not get the bonus.

The game has had some loopy rulings to be honest. We also don't play the corruption ruling according to the official rules, it makes Chaos faction and the tactic seduced by darkness way too weak.
We play that you can corrupt attackers and defenders when they are announced with seduced by darkness. It seems much more natural.


Actually me and my friends play it this way as well.

MasterDinadan wrote:
But there's nothing stopping you from corrupting units before the attacker and defenders are declared, so it doesn't really matter.


Well, it does matter a lot. Imagine two units attacking. A really big fatty, who can't kill opponent but will do a lot of harm. The second unit is only a supplement to finish him off. And then..... corruption and fatty stays at home and the other guy is on its own.
Otherwise if you corrupt fatty before attack, none will attack then.

I hope this make sensewhistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
I think he's talking about the fact that corrupting a unit after it's been declared as an attacker or defender doesn't stop the unit from participating in the battle, since corruption only stops a unit from being declared.

But there's nothing stopping you from corrupting units before the attacker and defenders are declared, so it doesn't really matter.

As for the Greatswords, notice that Empire units are all extremely weak. They RELY on tactics like this to be effective in the least. If you weaken these tactics, the faction becomes mostly worthless. I don't think it's fair to judge that one power as too good when most everything else they've got is pretty bad.


OK, but I don't see how that is a change. If they had changed the battlefield phase sequence, then yes, Chaos was hosed. but they didn't, so they are fine...?

Empire is fine. But still doesn't matter whether they were the weakest or the strongest. Just that the decision on how the card functions, (and therefore how other similar cards will function in the future), needs to be based on something that can be explained and applied. But the logic for this one just feels goofy.

EDIT: Wow I don't play seduced by darkness like that at all. Makes it way too powerful and too targeted and too cheap.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Greatswords ruling is consistent though. There are a ton of units in the game that trigger some kind of effect when they enter play, so it stands to reason that Greatswords can trigger themselves. After all, entering play always involves entering a zone, and if units are allowed to trigger themselves on entering play, why shouldn't they be allowed to trigger themselves on entering a zone as they enter play?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
See I would say no, as the effect they are triggering is on a card that isn't even in play yet.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Board games addict
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jambosson wrote:
quinnox wrote:
Its one of the rulings that we don't use. We don't think it makes sense, so we play it does not get the bonus.

The game has had some loopy rulings to be honest. We also don't play the corruption ruling according to the official rules, it makes Chaos faction and the tactic seduced by darkness way too weak.
We play that you can corrupt attackers and defenders when they are announced with seduced by darkness. It seems much more natural.


Actually me and my friends play it this way as well.

MasterDinadan wrote:
But there's nothing stopping you from corrupting units before the attacker and defenders are declared, so it doesn't really matter.


Well, it does matter a lot. Imagine two units attacking. A really big fatty, who can't kill opponent but will do a lot of harm. The second unit is only a supplement to finish him off. And then..... corruption and fatty stays at home and the other guy is on its own.
Otherwise if you corrupt fatty before attack, none will attack then.

I hope this make sensewhistle


Yup, I'm sure there are others who play it this way. It feels to me the way the game was designed in the first place.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Day
United Kingdom
Lee
LONDON
flag msg tools
Oi!
badge
That tickles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As the card enters play the effect is triggered, looks for the card and it gets the bonus.

Not having the card triggering itself doesn't really make sense and requires some kind of 'almost in play but not yet- limbo' state that doesn't presently exist in the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Windopaene wrote:
See I would say no, as the effect they are triggering is on a card that isn't even in play yet.


By that logic, the text on a card like Festering Nurglings is completely useless. It is extremely obvious based on cards like this that the text on a cad is applied before or at the same time that the card enters play.

To say that Greatswords are treated any differently would make them an awkward exception to the rule.

When you play Festering Nurglings, you pay for them, their text "turns on" and then they enter play, triggering their text. The same thing happens with Greatswords. Why should Greatswords have to wait until AFTER entering play to "turn on" their ability when nothing else does?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
The Greatswords ruling is consistent though. There are a ton of units in the game that trigger some kind of effect when they enter play, so it stands to reason that Greatswords can trigger themselves. After all, entering play always involves entering a zone, and if units are allowed to trigger themselves on entering play, why shouldn't they be allowed to trigger themselves on entering a zone as they enter play?


Because the care effect that is triggering hasn't resolved yet. That text isn't "in play". The card gets played. There is nothing in the zone at the time. Now admittedly, we don't have any cards that prevent a unit from coming into play, so it can't currently be stopped from doing so, but that's how I see it. The card resolves. No unit has entered the zone since the card came into play. That's why I find it so odd a ruling.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
Windopaene wrote:
See I would say no, as the effect they are triggering is on a card that isn't even in play yet.


By that logic, the text on a card like Festering Nurglings is completely useless. It is extremely obvious based on cards like this that the text on a cad is applied before or at the same time that the card enters play.

To say that Greatswords are treated any differently would make them an awkward exception to the rule.

When you play Festering Nurglings, you pay for them, their text "turns on" and then they enter play, triggering their text. The same thing happens with Greatswords. Why should Greatswords have to wait until AFTER entering play to "turn on" their ability when nothing else does?


Because it feels to me that the card enters play, and then their effect is triggered. Not the other way around. I'm not really arguing the ruling on Greatswords, just that it feels reallyweird to me. I don't see the Nurglings the same at all. They make sense to me. The Greatswords don't, as their triggering effect isn't a "comes into play" event. That is to say, it would seem to me that a card must be in play before it's triggers are considered. I guess it's more of a timing issue between "enters a zone" and "comes into play".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MasterDinadan wrote:
Windopaene wrote:
See I would say no, as the effect they are triggering is on a card that isn't even in play yet.


By that logic, the text on a card like Festering Nurglings is completely useless. It is extremely obvious based on cards like this that the text on a cad is applied before or at the same time that the card enters play.

To say that Greatswords are treated any differently would make them an awkward exception to the rule.

When you play Festering Nurglings, you pay for them, their text "turns on" and then they enter play, triggering their text. The same thing happens with Greatswords. Why should Greatswords have to wait until AFTER entering play to "turn on" their ability when nothing else does?


Because it feels to me that the card enters play, and then their effect is triggered. Not the other way around. I'm not really arguing the ruling on Greatswords, just that it feels reallyweird to me. I don't see the Nurglings the same at all. They make sense to me. The Greatswords don't, as their triggering effect isn't a "comes into play" event. That is to say, it would seem to me that a card must be in play before it's triggers are considered. I guess it's more of a timing issue between "enters a zone" and "comes into play".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Frantz
United States
Wenatchee
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I sorta agree with Windowpaene...so what I do is mentally add the "including themselves" bit to the end of the card text. If you play Magic then you know that many cards now have this bit of clarification added to their text. Lots of magic cards now trigger affects on themselves when they come into play so this feels similar.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Board games addict
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is one way the card could have been worded to make it clear. The text I added should have been first and then the forced effect text underneath it.

"When this unit enters play, the greatswords gains [power symbol] until the end of the turn."

"Forced: After a unit enters this zone, the greatswords gains [power symbol] until the end of the turn."

Maybe they will reprint some of these cards in the future with the correct text, I see that they have adjusted the text of Shrine to Nurgle in the FAQ and I'm sure there will be others too.

I would not mind to buy a new copy of these cards that need their text updated.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very unlikely they will reprint those cards. they haven't in the past.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damon Stone
United States
Dallas
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
quinnox wrote:

Yup, I'm sure there are others who play it this way. It feels to me the way the game was designed in the first place.


Sorry you would be wrong with this. Eric designed the game this way, on purpose. A card cannot stop an already attacking or defending character witout explicity stating that it removes it from the challenge. Corruption specifically says may not be declared as an attacker or defender (Page 17). There is no other way to interpret this rule that I am aware of. If you dislike it and want to play your own way that is fine, but there is no need to try and justify it as if Eric wanted it one way and FFG forced another mechanic on to it, because that is simply not true.

As to The Greatswords ruling, it is based on the timing of the game. You play the card, then check for constant effects that resolve because of a change in the game state. Then you check Forced Effects that would trigger because of a change in the game state. Then you check Action that could be triggered as responses because of a change in the game state. This all happens in the same "window" as The Great Swords coming into play, and is part of said action chain. When you look at it from this standpoint it makes sense. When you view it from the idea that you trigger effects as the card is coming into play instead of after it has entered play then it makes no sense at all. I originally viewed it this way. Nate made it clear and the FAQ concurs that it is the former.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't deny there appears to be a standard logical way to interpret it all that makes it make sense. I have been unable to internalize that logic. Thus I fear I will make similar interpretive mistakes in the future. Maybe if I read and reread what you just wrote about the action chain, it will make sense. I wish it were worded more explicitly. I also wish FFG would tighten up their proofreading/production oversight. Or seperate more completely the people involved in the three LCGs, (my Call of Cthulhu characters should not be commanded to kneel...
3 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Chelette
United States
Sunnyvale
California
flag msg tools
mb
quinnox wrote:
Its one of the rulings that we don't use. We don't think it makes sense, so we play it does not get the bonus.

The game has had some loopy rulings to be honest. We also don't play the corruption ruling according to the official rules, it makes Chaos faction and the tactic seduced by darkness way too weak.
We play that you can corrupt attackers and defenders when they are announced with seduced by darkness. It seems much more natural.

I think you are misunderstanding the timing and action windows in the Battlefield phase. There is an action window between "Declare Zone to be Attacked" and "Declare Attackers".

See page 10, phase 4 of the official FAQ:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/warhammer_lcg/...

Phase 4. Battlefield Phase
(Numbering added for clarity)
1) Active player decides (declares) which of his opponent’s zones he is attacking.
2) Actions may be taken by either player. (This is the point where Seduced By Darkness should be played in order to prevent a unit from assigning as an attacker due to corruption)
3) Active player declares attackers. (note: player is not required to assign any attackers)
4) Actions may be taken by either player. (Playing Seduced by Darkness at this step or any subsequent step does not prevent the target creature from participating in the battle. Although it is corrupt, it has already been assigned)
5) Defending player declares
defenders.
6) Actions may be taken by either player.
7) Damage is counted then assigned, without yet being applied.

Hope this clears things up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.