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Subject: A few more questions, before the game hits the table.... rss

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Michael Noakes
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My shiny new Republic of Rome is hitting the table today, and I have a few more questions before it starts--especially as I'll probably be the one teaching it....

These questions popped up during a 4-player 'solo' game I tried, for shaking out problems. (I hope to write that game up as a session report.)

1. What happens if the New Alliance is drawn and applied against a War with a Leader? (I sent the disgruntled leader back to the Curia and shuffled the war back into the top 6 cards; was that right?) What if the War has a matching War on it? DOes only one of the Wars leave, or are both shuffled back into the deck?

2. During prosecutions, is it a vote for or a vote againstthe minor or major conviction? In case of a tie, who wins?

3. If using the Provincial Wars advanced rule, can you send a Senator out to a Governorship, knowing that he will have to defend against a Active War that the Senate has no interest in prosecuting? This is essentially a death sentence, as the new Governor won't even have time to raise provincial troops, the Combat phase happening before it rolls back around to the Forum phase. If not using that Advanced Rule, is there any other way for a Province to get stomped on by enemy Wars?

4. If Matching Wars don't count against the 4-Active War limit, doesn't that make it very hard to lose in that way, at least in the Early Republic game? There are only 5 different wars in the Early deck, and two of them are pretty weak; it seemed easy to ignore the double-strength Punic War (-20 a turn isn't so bad) and use it as justification for appointing a Dictator to go crush the weaker enemies of Rome. Am I missing something?

Thanks for the help! This (seems) is a fantastic game....

-M.
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brian
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My thoughts....

1. If there is no other matching War for the leader, I would put him in the Curia. So he is subject to aging rolls until the war returns. If he has another matching war I would treat him as if he was just drawn in the forum phase and follwo those rules.

2. A vote "for" is a vote "for prosecution" (1.09.42) Just like any other proposal, it needs to pass by >50%. So if you have a tie - say 22-22 - then you didn't get the >50% so the motion fails and the accused remains innocent. In this example, you would have needed 23 voted "for" prosecution to condemn the accused.

3. If this is a first time game, I wouldn't be using the advanced rules, especially this one. I don't know enough about it to give a solid answer but I would assume that you treat it just like a War card in that you can't send a Governor there without his consent unless you send along a force sufficient to deal with the War. Death sentences are cool and all, but you at least have to give them a fighting chance.

Without the Advanced Rule, the closest thing to having Provinces stomped is the Barbarian Raids events. But otherwise, no War effects a Province in the base game.

4. You are probably more threatened by going bankrupt trying to fight the Wars. Yes, you only have 5 "total" wars guaranteed but you do have the potential to pick up up to 5 more Middle Republic Wars that might be shuffled in the tail end of the deck. Chances of drawing 5 new wars are pretty slim. But you might also pick up another Punic or Macedonian (or two) that might give you an even bigger headache if you let the first two smolder.
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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2) Be careful with popular appeal (1.09.421): in this case, positive votes are in favour of the accused, not the prosecutor!
 
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Grant Johnson
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1. Brian is right. Keep in mind that New Alliance takes place during the Senate, but the aging roll is at the end of the Forum phase. So the likelihood is that he'll be out next turn with his war again without a single roll, but it's not a certain thing.

2. Already well covered.

3. I think Governors can be elected without consent- you are required to assign a Governor during the Senate phase, and automatically elect the last eligible Senator if no one else is available (Rule 1.09.05). It can be a punishment even without the wars, as some of the provinces are real stinkers and votes in Rome are removed. You cannot send someone out as governor right after they return from their first governorship (1.09.51). I wouldn't play with the advanced rules fora attacking provinces the first time out (especially if you're doing Early Republic)- there are enough other things to worry about.

4. I respectfully disagree- the matching wars are counted separately. Per Rule 1.07.332, "When counting Active Wars (four and Rome is defeated) each matching war is considered a single war." To me, that reads that every matching war card is a single, different war (i.e. if they were counted together than it would be "all matching wars are a single war.")

Really looking forward to hearing the outcome from today! Keep us posted!
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Grant Johnson
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One other note regarding matching wars- the original rule set 7.332 reads "Matching wars are each considered a separate war contributing the effect of one separate War of the four required to defeat Rome."

I think the intent is pretty clear in the original rules, and the newer rules tried to clean up the clunkiness in how it was written.
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Steve Bachman
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Yes, you only have 5 "total" wars guaranteed but you do have the potential to pick up up to 5 more Middle Republic Wars that might be shuffled in the tail end of the deck.

Is this something new to the VG edition? Shuffling MR cards into the ER deck?
 
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Grant Johnson
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Yes- the way the game ends by running out the deck was changed. For Early Republic you shuffle the End of Era card with the last 6 of the Early Republic deck and a random 6 from the Middle Republic deck, and place it on the bottom. That way there's some suspense as to when the deck finally runs out, and the final Forum phase happens.
 
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Steve Bachman
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tallgrant wrote:
Yes- the way the game ends by running out the deck was changed. For Early Republic you shuffle the End of Era card with the last 6 of the Early Republic deck and a random 6 from the Middle Republic deck, and place it on the bottom. That way there's some suspense as to when the deck finally runs out, and the final Forum phase happens.

That idea was suggested during the pre-production discussions at the Yahoo! group, but IIRC it was thrashed by the fans there. The idea of MR cards in the ER deck was questioned, and still is I'd bet.

The good thing is that players can simply correct that by not using MR cards mixed into the ER deck and merely place them at the bottom of the deck to add that uncertainty. The bad thing is that means more variations of the game being played.

Oh well, what can ya do?
 
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brian
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Ward wrote:
tallgrant wrote:
Yes- the way the game ends by running out the deck was changed. For Early Republic you shuffle the End of Era card with the last 6 of the Early Republic deck and a random 6 from the Middle Republic deck, and place it on the bottom. That way there's some suspense as to when the deck finally runs out, and the final Forum phase happens.

That idea was suggested during the pre-production discussions at the Yahoo! group, but IIRC it was thrashed by the fans there. The idea of MR cards in the ER deck was questioned, and still is I'd bet.

The good thing is that players can simply correct that by not using MR cards mixed into the ER deck and merely place them at the bottom of the deck to add that uncertainty. The bad thing is that means more variations of the game being played.

Oh well, what can ya do?

The VG way of doing this is that you shuffle up the Early deck, and randomly take 6 Early cards. You then randomly take 6 Middle cards. Shuffle these 12 along with the era ends card and all 13 go to the bottom of the Early deck.

So you have a pretty pure Early deck with the potential for some Middle republic cards to show up right before the game ends. I think it is a clever idea.
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brian
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tallgrant wrote:
4. I respectfully disagree- the matching wars are counted separately. Per Rule 1.07.332, "When counting Active Wars (four and Rome is defeated) each matching war is considered a single war." To me, that reads that every matching war card is a single, different war (i.e. if they were counted together than it would be "all matching wars are a single war.")

I'll ask that this get clarified. I read the exact same thing with the exact opposite interpretation. I don't see each "matching war"; as a separate card at this point but as the entire "set" of matching wars.

In other words, you can only ever be impacted by a "single" Punic war even though 2 or 3 might be feeding into that "one" war.
 
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Michael Noakes
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tallgrant wrote:
One other note regarding matching wars- the original rule set 7.332 reads "Matching wars are each considered a separate war contributing the effect of one separate War of the four required to defeat Rome."

I think the intent is pretty clear in the original rules, and the newer rules tried to clean up the clunkiness in how it was written.


Now I'm confused. I read 1.07.332:

"When counting Active Wars (four and Rome is defeated), each Matching War is considered a single War."

As meaning that when wars are matched up--say, Punic I and Punic II--they combine to count as a single war for purposes of defeat via 4 wars. It'll cost you 40 during the revenue phase having both up,but only count as a single war for Losing the Game.

I have that wrong? I find the wording in both versions ambiguous.

Otherwise... I am loving this game. Don't think I've ever played anything quite like it.

-M.

 
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H-B-G
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I always thought that the original wording was unambiguous, but obviously I was wrong. I have always played that when you have matching wars, you fight each one separately and each counts towards the lose condition. The only effect of the matching being to double/triple/quadruple the values of the wars.

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Steve Bachman
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DaveD wrote:
I always thought that the original wording was unambiguous, but obviously I was wrong. I have always played that when you have matching wars, you fight each one separately and each counts towards the lose condition. The only effect of the matching being to double/triple/quadruple the values of the wars.


I've always found that clear and simple enough as well. Go figure.
 
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Luke Graham
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My brain hurts.... next time we need coffee breaks between turns and a LOT more time set aside :)
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Colin Bisasky
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Speaking of four wars, is Rome defeated the moment that a fourth war is drawn from the deck and becomes unmprosecuted? It said something about "at the end of the combat phase...etc, etc"...so does that mean if there are four wars present before and during the combat phase, Rome does not fall [yet]? It only falls once you have failed to defeat one of the four by the end of the combat phase?

Sounds like, oh crap, there's four wars we better kill off at least one or we're dead. When does Rome "fall" exactly?

Not to change the subject, sorry.
 
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brian
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From John...

1) Leader goes back to the Curia.

3) Governor gets screwed! (ok my words, but basically the intent)

4) each War card is a separate war. We have been working through the living rules so he may change an example to make it clear or make sure "card" stays in the text.
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Steve Bachman
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JimHackerMP wrote:
Sounds like, oh crap, there's four wars we better kill off at least one or we're dead. When does Rome "fall" exactly?

After the Combat Phase of the turn in which 4 or more active wars are out. So yeah, it is pretty much as you as you stated above.
 
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Michael Noakes
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
From John...

1) Leader goes back to the Curia.

3) Governor gets screwed! (ok my words, but basically the intent)

4) each War card is a separate war. We have been working through the living rules so he may change an example to make it clear or make sure "card" stays in the text.


Hey, thanks for finding out! I was starting to suspect that was the way (for #4). If matching wars combine when counting the 4, it takes a lot of pressure of the Republic. Looking forward to my next play--that extra danger will force more grudging cooperation.

But #3 raises an extra question:

Say two wars are active. The Senate sends a force during their phase and it kills off a war that creates a province during the COmbat phase. The province is immediately created, right? What if then the other Active War is one that would attack that province? Does it take control of that governless province at the end of the combat phase? (That would at least save a poor senator from a likely death sentence.)

Thanks again for the help,
M.
 
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Michael Noakes
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spooq wrote:
My brain hurts.... next time we need coffee breaks between turns and a LOT more time set aside :)


Hope you enjoyed the game! Hopefully next time we get a quicker start... and have a bit more room around the table! I reckon it might just be possible to get a full game done on a 4-hour Tue/Wed, if all the players knew the game beforehand....

-M.
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Weloi Avala wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
From John...

1) Leader goes back to the Curia.

3) Governor gets screwed! (ok my words, but basically the intent)

4) each War card is a separate war. We have been working through the living rules so he may change an example to make it clear or make sure "card" stays in the text.


Hey, thanks for finding out! I was starting to suspect that was the way (for #4). If matching wars combine when counting the 4, it takes a lot of pressure of the Republic. Looking forward to my next play--that extra danger will force more grudging cooperation.

But #3 raises an extra question:

Say two wars are active. The Senate sends a force during their phase and it kills off a war that creates a province during the COmbat phase. The province is immediately created, right? What if then the other Active War is one that would attack that province? Does it take control of that governless province at the end of the combat phase? (That would at least save a poor senator from a likely death sentence.)

Thanks again for the help,
M.


When a province gets created, it goes to the Forum for allocation to a Governor next turn.

Unless you are using the advanced rules, provinces are only attacked by random events: ignore active wars.
If you are using the advanced rules, active wars attack the province after all other wars are resolved.
 
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Michael Noakes
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nyhotep wrote:
When a province gets created, it goes to the Forum for allocation to a Governor next turn.

Unless you are using the advanced rules, provinces are only attacked by random events: ignore active wars.
If you are using the advanced rules, active wars attack the province after all other wars are resolved.


Yes, I understand that the province is sent to the Forum once it's created. Also, that using the advanced rules (I do; why not?) the province gets attacked at the end of the combat phase, after other wars are resolved.

What I'm wondering is whether a newly-created, governor-less province can be attacked (and presumably immediately defeated).

For example, if you have the 2nd Punic War active and the--is it Macedonian?--the one that creates one of the Gaulic provinces that the Punic War attacks; if those two wars are in play, and the other one defeated so that it creates the Gaulic province, and the Punic War left unprosecuted... would it then attack and conquer the newly established province?

(That sentence is entirely too convoluted for its own good.)

I suspect that it would be, but thought I'd check for online opinion first.

Cheers,
Mike
 
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Joel Tamburo
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I'd double check the war cards, as I'm not sure the scenario you are describing is going to happen with any frequency.
 
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Michael Noakes
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Joelist wrote:
I'd double check the war cards, as I'm not sure the scenario you are describing is going to happen with any frequency.


Illyricum is created by defeating the Illyrian Wars, and is attacked by all Macedonian Wars. The Illyrian Wars are a lot easier to defeat and carry a drought with them, so it's easy for them to be defeated before Macedonia comes along.

The first game I played it came up, which is why I'm curious.

-M.
 
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Grant Johnson
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Either that or the First Gallic War is defeated before the Second Punic.
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Michael Noakes
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tallgrant wrote:
Either that or the First Gallic War is defeated before the Second Punic.


Governorship's quite a risky job, isn't it?

(Unless you get one of those cozy Corsican postings, raping the province for profit and letting the State foot the bill....)

-M.
 
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