Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

No Peace Without Spain!» Forums » General

Subject: Map not that beautiful rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Łukasz
Poland
Warsaw
flag msg tools
Non vi sed virtute, not armis sed arte paritur victoria.
badge
e^{i · π} + 1 = 0
Avatar
mb
I am very interested in placing a pre-order but am a bit skeptic about the map. It seems not balanced in terms of composition, I mean, some areas are almost void of any fortresses whilst others are cluttered with them. I appreciate this has some historical reasoning but it just looks weird, from the lack of better word. For example, top-right section is just empty (let alone credits). Maybe it's a good space to put some CRT, turn order reminded, whatever.

It, what can be found on CG site, final version of the map?

Sorry for being picky, it's just I'm huge of fan of beautiful maps...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Much of the action was indeed centered in relatively small geographic areas, and absent doing something like this: http://mapologist.blogspot.com/2009/08/elizabethan-cartogram... , I think Don has it rather well-laid out...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
West2 wrote:
Much of the action was indeed centered in relatively small geographic areas

Depends how much you know about that conflict and what is your scale for small size...
The conflict was fought from Spain to Rhineland, from Netherlands to Sardinia and from Hungary to North America... A rather large area in fact... The game map as it is represents more the designer choices than history I think...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bosch
Spain
Girona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I like the map very much and I perfectly understand that both for historical reasons of the conflict depicted and playability, there are areas more "busy" than others.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don H
United States
Atlanta
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Couldn't say it better myself Marc, so I won't try! Actually, I will add one point... quite a bit of the open space will be used for tables, map keys, etc, so the map should appear more *balanced* once that's done.

Thanks,

Don
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Łukasz
Poland
Warsaw
flag msg tools
Non vi sed virtute, not armis sed arte paritur victoria.
badge
e^{i · π} + 1 = 0
Avatar
mb
dherndon wrote:
Couldn't say it better myself Marc, so I won't try!


Don, frankly speaking, this sounds like you couldn't take - justified or not, that's another kettle of fish - criticism. It is easy to take offence and try to back a high horse but I strongly believe in this case it would be wiser to put some more light on why you decided to design the map in that way. Regarding the fact there is no rulebook available, just some vague facts on the gameplay itself and that historical accuracy may have been trivialized, I would risk a statement it would be really beneficial for potentially interested customers to get to know more details.

It also may be worth adding - someone please correct me if I am wrong - that in that times strategy was mainly based on maneuver so map containing more points on the map would add to the theme.

I appreciate there will be tables and map keys. Thanks for letting me know.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don H
United States
Atlanta
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Map
Lukasz, uh uhh don't make me bow up...

Seriously, thanks for the feedback! I didn't take offense to the preceding comments and sorry my ditto reply seemed as such. I'm glad to shed more light on the map.

Scale, playtime, and complexity are prime considerations, with the goal of simulating the entire western European theater in a one-session game. Within this constraint, I have to be able to replicate a wide variety of historical campaigns. These include campaigns from Barcelona to Madrid and back in a single year, while Marlborough takes 10 years to go from the Dutch border to the French border (more or less, and notwithstanding some significant detours!).

To get more specific, each turn represents a campaign season of roughly 6 months, so each of the 5 rounds in a turn can be considered 5-6 weeks. Accordingly, the number and location of spaces factors in the typical distance an army could march in a given round, assuming it was traversing friendly territory - 3 spaces in game terms. But this has to be countered by the need to place enough "roadblocks" (i.e. fortress spaces) to prevent armies from achieving ahistorical advance rates. This is where the printed strength of a fortress comes in. Rather than add more fortress spaces in a heavily fortified area such as the Spanish Netherlands, which would artificially slow down an army moving through unimpeded, the strength of the fortress space is increased to represent the quantity and quality of the fortifications.

I hope that helps explain the rationale behind the map.

As to your comment about strategy based on maneuver, I understand and agree to an extent. My point was (is), the game steps back a notch and depicts things at a more operational scale. The more tactical thrust & parry I think you are referring to is handled by the intercept, avoid battle, and bypass lines mechanics and is greatly affected by leader quality.

Happy to answer more questions, and I sincerely appreciate the interest.

Don

P.S. I share your desire to distribute more details - I'll see what we can do.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Łukasz
Poland
Warsaw
flag msg tools
Non vi sed virtute, not armis sed arte paritur victoria.
badge
e^{i · π} + 1 = 0
Avatar
mb
Don, thumbing your own post doesn't increase its potential credibility ;-)

Nonetheless, I do appreciate your answer though it doesn't really explain why, for example, you didn't fill France with more fortresses of lower strength. Not that I know history well but I believe in France they have more than... let me count... 12? fortified castles.

Anyways, just to let you know, I have placed pre-order :-) This, I believe, puts in position to complain bit about design, doesn't it? Seriously speaking, I do hope I will enjoy this game.

Cheers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don H
United States
Atlanta
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Thank you very much for the pre-order, and good question about French fortifications. A few points:

1) In general, each fortified space on the map represents multiple fortresses. For instance there were about 30 first class fortresses in the Spanish Netherlands, represented by the 5 spaces. On the other end of the spectrum, the Gibraltar space represents the Rock itself. The reason why Gibraltar is inflated is both because of its unique geographic situation, and the logistical difficulty of sustaining a siege against it. The Netherlands on the other hand had numerous waterways and roads, more forage, etc... things to make a siege operation a little easier. In other words, the strength of a fortress space also factors in the area's ability to support a besieging force.

2) Vauban designed France's fortress system on the principle of a ring (or two rings where practical) around the state. He considered interior fortresses a waste of manpower and money and advocated - with some success - that several fortresses should be abandoned.

3) The unfortified spaces on the map are considered to have minor fortifications (walled towns and so on) and must be controlled like any other space before you can move past them or trace a supply line through them. However fortifications in these regions did not tend to hold out for more than a few days at most, so within the framework of a 5-6 week round a force only needs to spend a movement point to take it, rather than sitting down for a protracted siege.

Thumbing - mea culpa. I'm not that familiar with the boardgamegeek forums and thought I could click it for other viewing options. No self-promotion intended.

I will say the chance to describe the mechanics and systems is fun - and cathartic. If the above is helpful and you would like more of it, please let me know what interests you.

Don



7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.