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Subject: Breach Again? rss

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Dadi Wang
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Example 1:
By using Banish, monster with Breach Effect on rank 1 is moved to rank 2.
And then, the rank 1 moster is defeated.
When shifting the monster, is the Breach Effect triggered again?


Example 2:
The monster with Breach Effect is now on rank 2.
Using Banish to moving it to rank 1, and trigger Breach Effect.
And using another Banish to moving it to rank 2.
Then, using 3rd Banish to moving it to rank 1.
Is the Breach Effect triggered again?
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Ryan Metzler
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a100000001 wrote:
Example 1:
By using Banish, monster with Breach Effect on rank 1 is moved to rank 2.
And then, the rank 1 moster is defeated.
When shifting the monster, is the Breach Effect triggered again?


Example 2:
The monster with Breach Effect is now on rank 2.
Using Banish to moving it to rank 1, and trigger Breach Effect.
And using another Banish to moving it to rank 2.
Then, using 3rd Banish to moving it to rank 1.
Is the Breach Effect triggered again?


The rules specifically say that a breach effect may only happen once. This can be found on page 9 of the version 1.4 rulebook, and I quote:

Thunderstone Rules v1.4 p.9 wrote:
When a Monster with the Breach ability reaches Rank 1 of the Dungeon Hall, this effect is triggered immediately — once and only once.


It is also covered under the specific section for Breach Effects on page 19.

Thunderstone Rules v1.4 p.19 wrote:
When a Monster with Breach reaches Rank 1 of the Dungeon Hall (from any Rank) its Breach effect is triggered — once and only once — before the active player discards his hand and ends his turn (see page 4).


Hope this clears things up.

~ Ryan
 
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Dadi Wang
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If the example 1 occurs at the begging of the game...

Breach Effect in Rank 1 dose not trigger before the game start.

Will Breach Effect trigger if the monster left and back to Rank 1?
 
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Ryan Metzler
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a100000001 wrote:
If the example 1 occurs at the begging of the game...

Breach Effect in Rank 1 dose not trigger before the game start.

Will Breach Effect trigger if the monster left and back to Rank 1?


Yes...since it doesn't trigger the first time, it would if you moved it and brought it in.
 
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Brian M
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I think that's once again creating a more confusing situation than the rules would indicate.

The rules are very simple; when a monster moves to the rank 1, the breach effect occurs. It does not then keep occurring as the monster sits there.

This ruling would require keeping track of whether each monster has breached or not, even if it gets shuffled around in turn order.

What if it breaches, gets put on the bottom of the deck via a banish, then comes back up and gets rearranged back into the front position again? What if you're not sure whether its the copy of the monster that already breached or the one that didn't?

I think this should be kept simple instead.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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StormKnight wrote:
I think that's once again creating a more confusing situation than the rules would indicate.

The rules are very simple; when a monster moves to the rank 1, the breach effect occurs. It does not then keep occurring as the monster sits there.

This ruling would require keeping track of whether each monster has breached or not, even if it gets shuffled around in turn order.

What if it breaches, gets put on the bottom of the deck via a banish, then comes back up and gets rearranged back into the front position again? What if you're not sure whether its the copy of the monster that already breached or the one that didn't?

I think this should be kept simple instead.


The rule is as stated. It really isn't THAT hard to keep track of, especially when you have very little to really keep track of to start with. If the monster leaves the dungeon, I'm sure you can allow a new breach. However, rearranging after a first breach shouldn't allow a second one, and shouldn't be too hard to remember. Additionally, its going to be very rare that a monster banished to the bottom of the deck finds itself back in rank 1. This is due to the fact that the Thunderstone will inevitably come out before the monster, and in order to place the monster back in rank 1 you would need to banish to reorganize the monster in to rank 1. True, it COULD happen, but its unlikely
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
If the monster leaves the dungeon, I'm sure you can allow a new breach.

Not according to the rules now!

And yes, I know this is a rare situation, but Thunderstone is going to expand. Sooner or later, there will be a card that swaps a monster in the hall with the top of the deck, or returns a monster from a player's hand to the hall, or something that will turn this into a confusing issue.
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Brian M
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For the record, within 2 plays of this post, we had that situation come up - monster that had breached was put back on the bottom of the deck, came up behind the Thunderstone, and since it worth a lot more XP the player wanted to shuffle it to the front with Banish.

At least, it might have been the same one that already breached. Or maybe it was a different monster of the same type - who can tell?
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Ryan Metzler
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StormKnight wrote:
For the record, within 2 plays of this post, we had that situation come up - monster that had breached was put back on the bottom of the deck, came up behind the Thunderstone, and since it worth a lot more XP the player wanted to shuffle it to the front with Banish.

At least, it might have been the same one that already breached. Or maybe it was a different monster of the same type - who can tell?


You could. Had you placed more to the bottom of the deck after it? Was it close enough to the bottom of the deck for it to be that monster? I have talked to jim about this ruling, and I don't think this one is changing. I guess the best resolution is to agree on how it works with your friends and play it as such.
 
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Brian M
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It was below the Thunderstone. Since we didn't know where the Thunderstone was, as we were neither counting monsters as we went past, nor counting how many monsters were getting discarded via Elves and Banishes, no, we could not know for sure if it was the same one. We could have been tracking all that since the start of the game, but that would have been an idiotic amount of trouble.

Listen, this rule interpretation creates a problem. Cards should not have memory carry over from leaving play. The rules are already getting rewritten over and over, it could just say something like:

"When a Monster with Breach reaches Rank 1 of the Dungeon Hall (from any Rank) its Breach effect is triggered before the active player discards his hand and ends his turn (see page 4). Its Breach effect will not trigger again as long as it remains in the hall, but may trigger again if it leaves the hall and later returns."

(There are better ways to say that, but I'm keeping as close to the original text as possible).

Deciding how to play it with friends is always a way to play, but some of us actually like to play with assorted groups of people, or teach new people the game, without having to go through half an hour of sorting through which rules we're playing by first.
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Carl Bussema
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I realize this is very very bad thread necro, but I found this thread while googling for Thunderstone Banish Breach to answer this exact question, and found that in Advance (released 2012) they did finally change the rules:

"If the monster leaves rank 1 and returns, the Breach effect happens again."

Hopefully, StormKnight can rest easy now, two years later.
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Will M. Baker
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InfoCynic wrote:
I realize this is very very bad thread necro, but I found this thread while googling for Thunderstone Banish Breach to answer this exact question, and found that in Advance (released 2012) they did finally change the rules:

"If the monster leaves rank 1 and returns, the Breach effect happens again."

Hopefully, StormKnight can rest easy now, two years later.


Glad this has changed with ToR. There are now several cards that allow us to kick a breached monster back to the top of the dungeon deck; and several cards which allow a player to secretly re-organize the top of the dungeon deck. And as Brian pointed out, even kicking a card to the bottom doesn't make it safe, because constant deck reorganizations (e.g. via Foresight Elixir) can sink the Thunderstone down past cards that had previously been banished, or Ranger's Wilderness Map might resurrect it from the bottom.

If we kick a breached monster to the top of the deck, and assuming there are now two identical monsters toward the top of the deck, one of which has already breached whereas the other has not, we invite the situation where only the active player (who reorganized the deck) would know which of the two monsters has already breached. In the case of Village Mob, or a subsequent player reordering the deck, not even the active player would know! If Slynn Longbowmen were to reintroduce a breaching monster back into Rank 1, who'd be able to remember whether that monster has already breached or not?

Allowing for multiple breaches also allows for some strategic decisions. E.g. using several Bhoidwood Stalkers together to re-trigger a breach effect, if it would hurt my opponents more than me.
 
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Brian M
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InfoCynic wrote:
Hopefully, StormKnight can rest easy now, two years later.


Yessss!!!

 
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