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Subject: No Chance, Now What? rss

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J Chav
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I was playing in a game and one of the players had no chance to win or even come close. He decided to not do anything since he knew he couldn't win. This allowed me to build just high enough to beat the player who was expecting to win.

I have also seen it go the other way where the play who knows they can't win go after one player to help make sure they can't win.

Is this just part of the game?
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It is a part of Power Grid and every other game worth playing.

When a player no longer has a chance at victory they will come up with a new goal. New goals can range from ending the game as fast as possible, attacking another player or getting as many points as they can.

I find that unless I want a player to become an unpredictable wild card it is not smart to smash them down to the point where they cannot win.
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Nick Fisk
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rayito2702 wrote:
It is a part of Power Grid and every other game worth playing.

When a player no longer has a chance at victory they will come up with a new goal. New goals can range from ending the game as fast as possible, attacking another player or getting as many points as they can.

I find that unless I want a player to become an unpredictable wild card it is not smart to smash them down to the point where they cannot win.


Agreed.

If you had a hand in his downfall, expect to be a part of his plans for revenge :-)


N.
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R Larsen
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Just shows how bad a game it is.
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Bill Eldard
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Danath wrote:
I have also seen it go the other way where the play who knows they can't win go after one player to help make sure they can't win.


In the hobby, this is called kingmaking.

Danath wrote:
I was playing in a game and one of the players had no chance to win or even come close. He decided to not do anything since he knew he couldn't win. This allowed me to build just high enough to beat the player who was expecting to win.


This may have been a case of kingmaking, or merely resignation to the expected outcome. It could be that the player was bored and wanted to hasten the end of the game.

Either way, it's poor sportsmanship. Every player should be trying to optimize his/her score.
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mateo jurasic
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I agree. While it is hard to keep playing when you are so far out of contention, its also hard to not get vindictive of the person who put you there.

What is the appropriate strategy at that point? Is it wrong to attack those who screwed you over to prevent them from winning? Is it wrong to try to end the game as soon as possible so that you can get into another game that you might win (definitely possible in a game like Caylus)? Or should a player try to optimize their points?

Personally, I dont think any one of these answers is correct 100% of the time. Players should have repercussions for their actions, and if someone screwed you out of contention, it is a reasonable part of gameplay to try to get them back (no one would complain about this in a game like Diplomacy, or in real life, but somehow in games like Power Grid or other less obviously aggressive-themed games, people think this is wrong.) In effect, it is part of the Metagame, so that in future games, that player will know that if they screw you, they will suffer the consequences, and it might help you win in the future. If someone never fights back when you backstab them, whats to stop them from doing it again?

Similarly, I learned NEVER to screw my wife over (in a strictly BOARD GAME manner... sheesh) after she punished me for working with a buddy to block one of her long routes in Ticket to Ride and she made me miserable for the next 2 days...

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Moshe Callen
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This is why I prefer games with player elimination, but nonetheless this is a good game.
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mateo jurasic
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player elimination is fine, until you are eliminated and there are 2 more hours of game to be played...
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Micah Liebert
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This question seems to come up a lot in my circles. I've heared and given good arguments for different sides and my oppinion has oscilated over time. Personally I play for position. If I know I can't win, I will try to maximize my score. But I don't think it is wrong to play for revenge (as long as you don't take it outside of the game) or to knock down the leader or to end the game etc... The only thing that I do think is wrong and poor sportsmanship is to just quit or to whine and complain about it. There are some rare exceptions to the quitting rule. Where the game dynamics won't get messed up if a player leaves halfway through and everyone agrees it is okay I don't think it is a problem. However, there is no known exception to the whining rule. Someone played better than you. Suck it up, learn and do better next time. Or on the flip side, if you were in contention for victory and the player who wasn't knocked you out then suck it up too. You probably shouldn't have ignored them or misclassed them as a non threat. Maybe you should have tried to play the metagame and convinced them not to end the game or to attack the leader etc... In general I find I get much better at a game much faster when I attribute my losses to my own mistakes and decisions and try to improve and learn rather than attributing them to randomness or someone else's "stupid" decisions. I've never heard or seen someone get better at a game from whining about how they only lost because person X did Y.
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Moshe Callen
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mateooo wrote:
player elimination is fine, until you are eliminated and there are 2 more hours of game to be played...

I've never seen the point of this argument since other games exist, including if need be solo games.
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Todd Redden
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Yes, the person who put him in that condition is likely to be the Jester when the King is made.
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Mik Svellov
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Danath wrote:
I was playing in a game and one of the players had no chance to win or even come close.

What does he do when you are playing Cities & Knights?
Or maybe he is better at playing that, so the question has never arised.

It is possible to become hopelessly behind in any game that isn't only decided by pure chance.
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Micah Liebert
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mateooo wrote:


Similarly, I learned NEVER to screw my wife over (in a strictly BOARD GAME manner... sheesh) after she punished me for working with a buddy to block one of her long routes in Ticket to Ride and she made me miserable for the next 2 days...



I have a really big problem with this. My wife does it too and it bugs the hell out of me. You should never take the events of a game outside of the game. I've taken to predominently playing Coooperative games with her to avoid this. And when we do play something like T2R I make sure I don't take a route I don't need. This is a major reason why I never got Nordic countries, even though we both love T2R.
 
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J Chav
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Great Dane wrote:
Danath wrote:
I was playing in a game and one of the players had no chance to win or even come close.

What does he do when you are playing Cities & Knights?
Or maybe he is better at playing that, so the question has never arised.

It is possible to become hopelessly behind in any game that isn't only decided by pure chance.


I've only really played two games with him. BSG and Power Grid. He was so far behind he just didn't build the last turn which left just enough areas open for me to out build and supply the current leader with $2 left.
 
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whac3 wrote:
mateooo wrote:
player elimination is fine, until you are eliminated and there are 2 more hours of game to be played...

I've never seen the point of this argument since other games exist, including if need be solo games.


I understand mateooo's point, and I agree.

Looking back at playing Monopoly as a kid, it was apparent that the two losers in the game were the last two remaining players. While they rolled dice hoping to land on Free Parking, Go, or go to jail until the opponent impaled himself on the hotel at Boardwalk, the eliminated players were off on their bikes doing something else.

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Eldard wrote:
Either way, it's poor sportsmanship. Every player should be trying to optimize his/her score.

Who is the poorer sport, the player who can't win ending the game early or the player who can win telling the loser, whom he's just destroyed, how he has to play for the rest of the game?
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kirby g
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How did he end up so far behind with no chance? In games of powergrid that I have played its a pretty close race the whole time. The person behind gets prime building choice, cheap resources and can get a power plant at cost.

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Daniel Corban
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The answer is to play the game more often. This person who gave up needs more practice!
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J Chav
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keebie wrote:
How did he end up so far behind with no chance? In games of powergrid that I have played its a pretty close race the whole time. The person behind gets prime building choice, cheap resources and can get a power plant at cost.



He had a lot of clean plants and the current market was very crappy. He kept getting outbid on the larger 5-6 plants and he owned a bunch of 3-4's.
 
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Russ Williams
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RLarsen wrote:
Just shows how bad a game it is.

In that case, every multiplayer game where your actions affect other players is bad...
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RLarsen wrote:
Just shows how bad a game it is.


You are kidding, right?!

 
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dcorban wrote:
The answer is to play the game more often. This person who gave up needs more practice!


Bingo! The reason you prefer to play with people who are better than you is because you are going to learn a lot more from them than anyone else. If you know you can't win, then you play to finish as high as you can. This forces you to hone your play.

Throwing a game you can't win, just to end it, or going on a personal vendetta once victory is out of sight, teaches you little - but does tell the players you're with something about your character...
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Dragonbear82 wrote:
mateooo wrote:


Similarly, I learned NEVER to screw my wife over (in a strictly BOARD GAME manner... sheesh) after she punished me for working with a buddy to block one of her long routes in Ticket to Ride and she made me miserable for the next 2 days...



I have a really big problem with this. My wife does it too and it bugs the hell out of me. You should never take the events of a game outside of the game. I've taken to predominently playing Coooperative games with her to avoid this. And when we do play something like T2R I make sure I don't take a route I don't need. This is a major reason why I never got Nordic countries, even though we both love T2R.

That sucks, because that is one of the most important, fine points about Ticket to Ride. I can't imagine playing a game, and having to hold back screwage. What a waste of time.
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mateo jurasic
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Sometimes Imake sacrifices to have myotherwise ungeeky wife do geeky things with me.

The small price to pay is absolutely worth it.
 
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tmredden wrote:
I can't imagine playing a game, and having to hold back screwage. What a waste of time.

Indeed. It sounds analogous to someone getting upset if you capture one of their pieces in Chess or something. "Hey! You should play nice!"
 
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