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Subject: 2 rules questions rss

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Andrew Ward
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A couple of questions have come up in my groups during play.

1. Apart from influence markers (which the rules eplicitly exempt from selling, trading, etc.), are there any other limitations on negotiations? For example, can remote stills, speakeasy improvement markers, or still improvement dice be sold/bartered/extorted?

2. The following situation came up last night in our 3-player game.

Players A, B, & C had muscle cards in decreasing order (A highest, C lowest). Player B had 5 influence markers on Mother's. No other players had any influence there.

At the beginning of the "Send in the Boys" phase, A had 6 influence markers in his back room, and B had 1. Player A played Double Cross and removed one of B's markers from Mother's (leaving 4 markers and 5 blank spaces). A then placed 5 markers in Mother's. C played Hit on one of A's just-placed markers (because B paid him to do it!). B had not yet moved his influence marker from his back room.

The question is, can Player A quickly pick up his remaining influence marker and place it on the empty space on Mother's? The rationale there is that B hadn't begun placing his influence markers yet, so it was still A's turn. Obviously, both A & B would like to place their remaining marker on Mother's and take a controlling stake, but is it legal for Player A to do that?

Thanks!
 
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mithrandrew wrote:
A couple of questions have come up in my groups during play.

1. Apart from influence markers (which the rules eplicitly exempt from selling, trading, etc.), are there any other limitations on negotiations? For example, can remote stills, speakeasy improvement markers, or still improvement dice be sold/bartered/extorted?



You asked a couple of tough questions.

Anything in the back room except influence markers can be traded - still improvements and speakeasy improvements. Played speakeasy improvements cannot be traded as they are no longer your property - they belong to the speakeasy.

I'm not clear on whether played still improvements or even a remote still are tradeable. I traded away a played still improvement once, but in retrospect I'm not sure if I was allowed to.

Quote:

2. The following situation came up last night in our 3-player game.

Players A, B, & C had muscle cards in decreasing order (A highest, C lowest). Player B had 5 influence markers on Mother's. No other players had any influence there.

At the beginning of the "Send in the Boys" phase, A had 6 influence markers in his back room, and B had 1. Player A played Double Cross and removed one of B's markers from Mother's (leaving 4 markers and 5 blank spaces). A then placed 5 markers in Mother's. C played Hit on one of A's just-placed markers (because B paid him to do it!). B had not yet moved his influence marker from his back room.

The question is, can Player A quickly pick up his remaining influence marker and place it on the empty space on Mother's? The rationale there is that B hadn't begun placing his influence markers yet, so it was still A's turn. Obviously, both A & B would like to place their remaining marker on Mother's and take a controlling stake, but is it legal for Player A to do that?

Thanks!


Muscle order decides timing questions. In this case, Player A has the higher muscle card so they would be able to play their remaining marker.

(What I'm not clear on... if there were a 4th player - Player D - who had higher muscle than anyone else, would they be able to overrule Player A and allow Player B to play?)
 
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Don Beyer
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FlyingArrow wrote:
mithrandrew wrote:
A couple of questions have come up in my groups during play.

1. Apart from influence markers (which the rules eplicitly exempt from selling, trading, etc.), are there any other limitations on negotiations? For example, can remote stills, speakeasy improvement markers, or still improvement dice be sold/bartered/extorted?



You asked a couple of tough questions.

Anything in the back room except influence markers can be traded - still improvements and speakeasy improvements. Played speakeasy improvements cannot be traded as they are no longer your property - they belong to the speakeasy.

I'm not clear on whether played still improvements or even a remote still are tradeable. I traded away a played still improvement once, but in retrospect I'm not sure if I was allowed to.

2. The following situation came up last night in our 3-player game.

Players A, B, & C had muscle cards in decreasing order (A highest, C lowest). Player B had 5 influence markers on Mother's. No other players had any influence there.

At the beginning of the "Send in the Boys" phase, A had 6 influence markers in his back room, and B had 1. Player A played Double Cross and removed one of B's markers from Mother's (leaving 4 markers and 5 blank spaces). A then placed 5 markers in Mother's. C played Hit on one of A's just-placed markers (because B paid him to do it!). B had not yet moved his influence marker from his back room.

The question is, can Player A quickly pick up his remaining influence marker and place it on the empty space on Mother's? The rationale there is that B hadn't begun placing his influence markers yet, so it was still A's turn. Obviously, both A & B would like to place their remaining marker on Mother's and take a controlling stake, but is it legal for Player A to do that?

Thanks!


Muscle order decides timing questions. In this case, Player A has the higher muscle card so they would be able to play their remaining marker.

(What I'm not clear on... if there were a 4th player - Player D - who had higher muscle than anyone else, would they be able to overrule Player A and allow Player B to play?)[/q]

I am good with how FlyingArrow describes the speakeasy improvement - it is a reasonable interpretation to make (I don't think we ever considered having a rule to cover - it is pretty common sense to think that once the speakeasy improvement is placed it is permanent). If it is still in your back room - it can be traded as FlyinArrow states.

The timing on influence placement is a bit of a judgment call. Personally, I think I know exactly what happened here. A could not place any more influence markers so effectively his or her turn was done and play passed to B who proceeded to talk C into helping out. The only reason B did it was to open a spot for their own influence marker to be placed. A jumping back into place an influence marker should not be allowed at that point. B could have asked whether A was done before proceeding with the scheme just to be on the safe side.

That's my call on it.

D

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angelotti wrote:

The timing on influence placement is a bit of a judgment call. Personally, I think I know exactly what happened here. A could not place any more influence markers so effectively his or her turn was done and play passed to B who proceeded to talk C into helping out. The only reason B did it was to open a spot for their own influence marker to be placed. A jumping back into place an influence marker should not be allowed at that point. B could have asked whether A was done before proceeding with the scheme just to be on the safe side.

That's my call on it.

D



Bah! If I'm Player A, I'd say, "My turn is over as soon as Player B either starts his turn by playing some influence or commits to passing." And with the higher muscle card, you'd take it and you'd like it, ya see!
 
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Don Beyer
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FlyingArrow wrote:
angelotti wrote:

The timing on influence placement is a bit of a judgment call. Personally, I think I know exactly what happened here. A could not place any more influence markers so effectively his or her turn was done and play passed to B who proceeded to talk C into helping out. The only reason B did it was to open a spot for their own influence marker to be placed. A jumping back into place an influence marker should not be allowed at that point. B could have asked whether A was done before proceeding with the scheme just to be on the safe side.

That's my call on it.

D



Bah! If I'm Player A, I'd say, "My turn is over as soon as Player B either starts his turn by playing some influence or commits to passing." And with the higher muscle card, you'd take it and you'd like it, ya see!


Well played!

You know... I did lobby for the "The Don Wins Game Immediately" thug card but it didn't make it through development. Some nonsense about game balance.
 
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1. I'm also curious about the first question: are you able to trade anything in the game except Influence markers? For example: I'll give you my Friendly Union Boss Thug card (which I used for 2 turns already) in exchange for your remote still with 2 still improvements (not speakeasy). Or give me 2 Thug cards and one die from your family still (not from the backroom) and I won't close your speakeasy.
Or "I'll trade you a 72 Muscle card for 10 G and a 15 Muscle card.". Or "let me pick up your Men of action card in your place and I will give you my trucks." (meaning that you will pick up 2 Men of Action cards and the other player won't get any).
In relation to the above examples: are you allowed to make deals at any time? For example: beginning of a new round. Everybody plays their Muscle cards. Can I make a deal with another player to switch played Muscle cards among ourselves? Instead of him being top muscle for this round and me being third, we change places.

2.
FlyingArrow wrote:


Muscle order decides timing questions. In this case, Player A has the higher muscle card so they would be able to play their remaining marker.

(What I'm not clear on... if there were a 4th player - Player D - who had higher muscle than anyone else, would they be able to overrule Player A and allow Player B to play?)


I know Don Beyer responded already, but it didn't seem he covered the Player D alternative. In my opinion, If player D (highest muscle) placed his Influence markers, then came A and then C destroyed an Influence marker of player A, I don't think that player D could make any more moves. He finished his turn when A started his. And he doesn't have a word in overruling A - his turn is over and that's it.
The battle between A and B is still anyone's guess but D is definitely out of the question.

3. New question: B pays C to play a Thug card. C accepts and takes the money. He then decides to not play the card. Is it legal? I know players can go back on their word but the manual was very specific that cash payment takes places immediately and is mandatory. Does the same go for the service bought with the cash?
I see 2 situations, with different nuances that could influence the answer: 1. B pays C to play the card immediately.
2. B pays C to play the card at a later time.

Thank you!

p.s. so many questions because it's a great game and it really makes you think about all kinds of sneaky things in order to become Top Mobster. So, congrats to the designers!

 
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joeblow1616 wrote:

3. New question: B pays C to play a Thug card. C accepts and takes the money. He then decides to not play the card. Is it legal? I know players can go back on their word but the manual was very specific that cash payment takes places immediately and is mandatory. Does the same go for the service bought with the cash?
I see 2 situations, with different nuances that could influence the answer: 1. B pays C to play the card immediately.
2. B pays C to play the card at a later time.

Thank you!


An immediate transaction is resolved immediately. The option to go back on your word is for future considerations.
 
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ok, thanks for the quick response. So if B pays C to play a card now, C has to do it. If he pays to play it later, C takes the money and decides if he wants to screw B over or not. Sounds good! arrrh

Any thoughts on question 1? Is anything exchangeable?
 
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I never thought about trading Muscle Cards. That's a tricky one. Or action card selections - although you can trade the actual cards once selected. You can trade action cards, trucks, improvements, crates, favors. You can't trade away your family still or your influence markers. You can threaten and use extortion. You can accept the extortion money and then follow through on the threat anyway. Note the difference between that and payment for an immediate action (or purchase)... payment for an immediate action is a simultaneous transaction. When a player pays extortion money, they are paying for something that extends into the future.
 
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thanks for the clarifications. it's more or less what I thought also, but it's good to have it confirmed.
basically you cant't trade something that nobody would be able to use - Influence markers (because they're in your color) and Family still (because it's in your color).
thanks!
 
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