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Job 40

The LORD said to Job:

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Then Job answered the LORD :

"I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.

I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?

Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.

Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,

look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.

Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.

Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

"Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.

What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!

His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.

He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.

Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.

The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.

When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.

Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose?

Job 41

"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?

Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?

Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?

Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

"I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.

Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.

Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear.

He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."
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True Blue Jon
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bjlillo wrote:
Quote:
"Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.

What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!

His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.


So, what creature is/was the behemoth?


Translations note that it's probably an elephant or hippopotamus but I've heard Answers in Genesis people laugh at that. They point at the line above where "his tail sways like a cedar". They think it's some kind of dinosaur.

No wondering about the leviathan though? Is it because it's obviously a fire-breathing dragon?
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Daniel Eig
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Quote:
"Brace yourself like a man


So... is being "like a man" here a good thing, or a bad thing?

Quote:
"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?


At this point, apparently, the cultural meme was that might makes right. God is just, because He can kick your ass.

Quote:
"Look at the behemoth,


The hippo, I'm guessing? Or a mythical creature - a walking whale, a popular local legend?

Quote:
"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?


What does it mean that we probably could do so, now, if we wished?

This... thing...is a mythical counterpart of the Behemoth. It kind of resembles a giant crocodile crossed with a whale, until the breathing fire part - this part of the description is so outlandish as to make this resemble no creature on Earth - living or dead - except perhaps the mythical dragon.
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Daniel Eig
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quozl wrote:
I've heard Answers in Genesis people laugh at that.


That alone should tell us we're on the right track.
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Stuart
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"Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.

His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.

Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds
in the marsh.

The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.

When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth"

Sonds like more of a description of a hippopotamus - I saw on the news they currently have some in Israel they're trying to give away.
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John Hart
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Some experts believe that certain Dino's (the one's that ate grass) could belch sulfuric fumes* that could light fires. So that Dragon/Leviatian could just be a big herbivore that lived in the water (or spent a lot of time there) I can't see it as being a Hippo or a Croc. If that were the case then JOB would might have seen Dinosaurs which could mean that man and dino's lived in the same time and not millions of years apart. This is not a far fetched as you might think since some extict fish have made there way into fishers nets. Like the ones found off of the Madagascar Coast a couple of decades ago. That and once you take into account the Mount St. Helens Eruption that created a "mini" grand canyon of 1/40 the size of the Grand Canyon in about 8 hours, you could come to the fact that Geological evidence (fossil layer data) isn't as reliable as some scientist say it is. so Dino's may have been around WELL less than 10,000 years ago.

*=that should have said combustable gases
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Daniel Eig
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The biggest "dinosaur" that Job or his buddies ever saw was an Ostrich.

Outside of our avian friends, the dinosaurs were all wiped out millions of years ago. There might be mistakes made in dating, but no one is screwing it up enough to mistake a thousand year old bone for a millions of year old one.

EDIT: Fun fact, evidence has been found for only 3 types of "dinosaurs" in Israel (there were certainly more, as very few fossils make it to the present day to be uncovered):
+ Elaphrosaurus - a mid-sized dinosaur (20 feet long or so), that went extinct 150 million years ago - tracks were found outside of Jerusalem
+ Mosasaurs - technically a lizard, not a dinosaur. Basically a GIANT sea snake with legs - died out 65 million years ago. Fossils found deep in a limestone quarry north of Jerusalem
+ Nothosaurus - technically an aquatic seal-like giant lizard, not a dinosaur. Died out 130 million years ago. Fossils found in a sandstone/limestone outcrop near the dead sea.

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The Steak Fairy
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I wish some of those fire breathing dinos would wander out of their Lost World jungle and help me start my backyard grill once in awhile. There's the hidden message in Job: Fossil fuel is not required if their source is still around to create fire.
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John Hart
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dtolman wrote:
The biggest "dinosaur" that Job or his buddies ever saw was an Ostrich.

Outside of our avian friends, the dinosaurs were all wiped out millions of years ago. There might be mistakes made in dating, but no one is screwing it up enough to mistake a thousand year old bone for a millions of year old one.

EDIT: Fun fact, evidence has been found for only 3 types of "dinosaurs" in Israel (there were certainly more, as very few fossils make it to the present day to be uncovered):
+ Elaphrosaurus - a mid-sized dinosaur (20 feet long or so), that went extinct 150 million years ago - tracks were found outside of Jerusalem
+ Mosasaurs - technically a lizard, not a dinosaur. Basically a GIANT sea snake with legs - died out 65 million years ago. Fossils found deep in a limestone quarry north of Jerusalem
+ Nothosaurus - technically an aquatic seal-like giant lizard, not a dinosaur. Died out 130 million years ago. Fossils found in a sandstone/limestone outcrop near the dead sea.



So what your saying is that the fossilized dino track with a Human track embeded in them (sandstone I think) that was found it Texas is a myth? Whereas it suggest that a man stepped into a dino track right after it was made? Somew more food for thought, why is it that just about every culture has some sort of Dragon in it's ledgend. Could the almighty and supreme scientist have made a slight error in stating that dinosuars where wiped out "before" man. evidence suggest otherwise. I find it somewhat ammusing that sceintist stated only 40 years ago that oil was caused by dinosuars and yet now they are saying that it cant be true. Oil was not formed from Dino's (maybe coal but not oil). In 20 more years maybe the experts will then say " o yes dinosaurs were around when man was" then 20 years after that they will change their mind agian. For me it just take to much faith to believe in something that will change every 20 - 40 years.
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John Hart
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dtolman wrote:
The biggest "dinosaur" that Job or his buddies ever saw was an Ostrich.


and furthermore why would you describe something that you have "never" seen. This text also suggest that dinos where around during JOB's time. Even if this is not the word of God then someone saw something rather large and recorded it. kind of hard to say that he only could have seen an ostrich. (which now birds are the desendents of dinos and not lizards, that is until the next scientist meeting)
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Daniel Eig
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timex wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The biggest "dinosaur" that Job or his buddies ever saw was an Ostrich.


and furthermore why would you describe something that you have "never" seen. This text also suggest that dinos where around during JOB's time. Even if this is not the word of God then someone saw something rather large and recorded it. kind of hard to say that he only could have seen an ostrich. (which now birds are the desendents of dinos and not lizards)


Dinosaur/man tracks a myth? Yes - that would be the proper word for it.

People describe things they have never seen all the time - either through ignorance, exaggeration or outright imagination. Descriptions by people are a lousy standard for establishing absolute truth. By that standard, every pagan god in history was real - as all were well described.

It would be, in fact, easy to say that the Ostrich would be the largest bird he could have seen - as it is the largest bird in the world. And yes, birds are descended from dinosaurs - I'm not sure why you would compare them to lizards. Amusingly, dinosaurs split from lizards earlier than mammals did - guess that makes us closer to lizards than birds are...

Finally, to bring this back to Job - the text does not suggest at all that dinosaurs were around during Job's time. That is your modern interpolation. The book of Job only describes the largest beasts of sea and land, as boasted by God. In fact - the description is God's alone - there is no sign in the text that Job, or his friends, have ever seen them in person - or that the creatures still exist in Job's day.

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John Hart
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dtolman wrote:
[ The book of Job only describes the largest beasts of sea and land, as boasted by God. In fact - the description is God's alone - there is no sign in the text that Job, or his friends, have ever seen them in person - or that the creatures still exist in Job's day.


So we only have God's word for it and not some man? That would mean that you think God is real. Which would also lead one to belive that If God said something then everything else He said must also be real, like the whole creation thing?

The point I was trying to make without assuming that God is indeed real was that IF God was not real then SOMEONE had to see and write down what they saw in regards to this animal. IF we only have God's word for it then we can take God at his word that he created everything. So now we can rule out Pure evolution. All we have left would be Creation and a Creation/evolution combo theory. Either which says God is real.

Back to the point at hand, If you can dismiss some fossil evidence that shows man and dinosuars living at the same time. What else can you dismiss.

The comment about the birds and the lizards is for everyone over the age of 45+ or so becuase is was taught in school that Dinos evolved to lizards but that information has changed over time to say that dinos now turned into birds.

If you dont take in ALL the data but only pick and choose that which fits your theory then your no better than those guys who say Global warming is purely man made.
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For anyone who is interested the dino/human footprint that was found is called the Ryals Track and is near Glen Rose, Texas
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Daniel Eig
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This is far afield from Job, but hopefully Quozl won't mind, as it seems this discussion has pretty much run its course.

First off - Ryals Track. From what I can see, the human claim was debunked decades ago. Here's an analysis from 25 years ago that shows how further study identified them as, dinosaur tracks after all:
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/color.htm

Second - evolution is NOT incompatible with the idea of God being the Creator. For that matter - neither is abiogenesis - the idea that life can arise from inert matter through chemical processes alone.

Either process is compatible with Creation - it just requires (gasp) that God be smarter than us. A LOT smarter than us - you know, a god-like intelligence. So smart, that He can get whatever He wants in the universe just by fiddling with the starting conditions, and whatever laws of nature govern it - including Evolution. Maybe, as a being outside of both time and space, he could even go back and fiddle with those laws and conditions whenever he feels like - propagating the change forward in all time and space, leaving us unaware anything is different.

To limit an omniscient/omnipotent God to working directly on all things, in sequential order, and only in ways comprehensible to us, is to limit Him to something less than godlike.

To bring this back to Job - one of its lessons is that God is far above us, and we should not make presumptions on how He works, something you apparently have not learned reading Job. Go back and read the last few chapters of Job again - God is above us all, in ways we can not comprehend. Do not be like Eliphaz and presume to tell us the way things should and should not be, and how God works.
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But maybe God only made Job say that to YOU, and to everybody else it says that God is totally sequential and comprehensible and shaped like a giant Lollipop! What about THAT, Mr. Smug!!!
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John Hart
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The point I was trying to make at the beginning was that this leviathan may have been a dinosaur. The discription does not match anything that we know of except maybe a Dragon. As Dragons as presumably mythical in nature we discount it just because. But here in this passage we have a discription of some type of Herbavoire that has hard scales both of which dinosaurs had. It has a tail like a cedar - so do dinosaurs. The only part people scoff at is the fire breathing and that it's in JOB. How could someone have guess that Dinosaurs (some of them at least) would be Herbavoires and that they would be that large unless they SAW them. Thats the point I was trying to make. OK, ok If God tells you something then you would belive it I guess but assuming that there is no God someone HAD to see this animal. In short I think that this proves (or at least gives some incication) that some animals (ie Dinosaurs) did exist with man, not 25 mil years ago but less than 10,000 years ago.
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Daniel Eig
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It may have been a dinosaur. Or a giant fish. Or a lizard. The fire breathing could be metaphor or hyperbole, as a sign of his strength - something the description is full of.

All we can tell is this creatures has these characteristics:
-Teeth
-Scales (which dinosaurs, lizards, and fish all have).
-Goes in the water

It could be whatever we want it to be. It could even be imaginary.

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I want it to be a delightful cautionary tale crafted by people that thought they knew best how other people should behave.
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dtolman wrote:
It may have been a dinosaur. Or a giant fish. Or a lizard. The fire breathing could be metaphor or hyperbole, as a sign of his strength - something the description is full of.

All we can tell is this creatures has these characteristics:
-Teeth
-Scales (which dinosaurs, lizards, and fish all have).
-Goes in the water

It could be whatever we want it to be. It could even be imaginary.



and has limbs and can breath fire. It's not a snake but some sort of animal that has limbs (I dont think fins are considered limbs) so its not a fish either. If it's fire breath is considered a metaphor for strength(which i dont belive it is) then what does the breath that is like the vapor from a boiling pot that comes from its nose mean? Once again someone writes down what they SEE and you want to dismiss the evidence at hand. Not very scientific of you. Why not try and disprove such an animal can exist. Animals have gone extict over time this could have been such an animal. as I have stated before every culture around the world has some sort of dragon (some with wings, some without legs) in ledgend could these not be dinos that only died off in the last 1000 or so years? or at least in mans time?
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