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Subject: Which Eurogames have no Luck Element? rss

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Steve Gilbert
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Could anyone recommend a Eurogame to me that has no luck element to it? This is a real question not an invitation to flame. I just have not played a lot of Euros. Thanks.
 
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Andrew Tullsen
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Caylus
Besides randomly choosing the player order, there is no randomness.
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CHAPEL
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Imperial might fit the bill.
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Giannis Sofianopoulos
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Take a look at Caylus, it has absolutely no luck element.
Also Puerto Rico, Brass: Lancashire and Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization have minimum luck factor that doesn't really "mess" with your game plans.
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J Jimenez
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Howitzer_120mm wrote:
Caylus
Besides randomly choosing the player order, there is no randomness.


Actually, Caylus has a little of randomness with the placing of basic buildings.

Also, a Geeklist about this issue.
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Rick Scholes
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Search the Geek a bit for even more ideas. There are prior threads that cover this question.
 
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Andrew Tullsen
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urnagriega wrote:
Howitzer_120mm wrote:
Caylus
Besides randomly choosing the player order, there is no randomness.


Actually, Caylus has a little of randomness with the placing of basic buildings.


Whoops. Forgot that part.

Okay, besides setup, there is no randomness.
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Joakim Björklund
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* In the Year of the Dragon has no random elements after the initial setup.
* Chicago Express
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Les Marshall
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Try El Grande which is all about placement and action card selection.
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Lacombe
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Howitzer_120mm wrote:
urnagriega wrote:
Howitzer_120mm wrote:
Caylus
Besides randomly choosing the player order, there is no randomness.


Actually, Caylus has a little of randomness with the placing of basic buildings.


Whoops. Forgot that part.

Okay, besides setup, there is no randomness.


But randomness [at least before the game begins] is not the same as luck: Your fate / outcome / course of action being determined by chance.

If the randomness were in the middle of the game, it could be "luck" because depending on what the players had done so far in the game, it might affect them differently [even if the effect--let's say, losing 5 coins--was applied to all players equally, the impact on their game position would be different depending on the needs / uses they had planned out for those 5 coins]. At the beginning of a game, however, randonmness has no effect that is equatable to "luck", because it doesn't affect the game outcome of any particular player vis-a-vis their competition.

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Jim Cote
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Depends what you mean by luck.

Great games with zero randomness:

Medina
Mexica
Antike
In the Shadow of the Emperor

Great games with only random setup:

Maharaja: The Game of Palace Building in India
Steam
Last Train to Wensleydale
König von Siam

Great games with only random stuff shared by all players:

Goa (forgot about Expedition cards, individual luck here too)
El Grande
Vinci
La Città

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Lacombe
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Antike has no luck.

Medieval Merchant is close. Like some of the others mentioned, it has a random setup. The kicker is that the random setup does, in this case, affect players unequally [they start with different resources / on un-level "playing fields"]. It is well balanced, and there is no luck after the dealing out of initial resources, but there is that one minor element at the beginning.

Through the Desert is almost a pure "abstract".

 
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Eric Knauer
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Hansa Teutonica didn't seem to have much luck.
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Brian McCormick
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Caylus 100% of the way.

Virtually no randomness, and absolutely no luck. If you win, you've won for a reason.
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Robert Burian
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JockiB wrote:
* In the Year of the Dragon has no random elements after the initial setup.
* Chicago Express


Huge randomness/ luck in how the roles "group" during each turn in ItYotD
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Craig Somerton
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Through the Desert
 
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Austin S
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Except for the choice of nations at the start, Antike has no luck factor.
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Steve Gilbert
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ekted wrote:
Depends what you mean by luck.



Luck is anything that impacts a player's ability to win. That includes pregame set up, cards, random events (even ones that effect all players), etc.
 
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Lacombe
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ekted wrote:

Great games with only random stuff shared by all players:

Goa (forgot about Expedition cards, individual luck here too)
El Grande



This kind of proves my point about randomness that affects all players equally still having an element of luck / fate / chance in it, because [in the end] it doesn't really affect all players equally.

Depending on my position in the game, I could be really hurting or really happy when certain cards or tiles come up [available to "all players" equally] in El Grande or Goa. That's luck, I think.

It's not just the individual things like the expedition cards. If I spent my 13 in an auction in El Grande because I knew I'd be ok in region XYZ unless card ABC came up next time and player Q could snag it with their 13, and then that card comes up, I'm screwed... even though it's available "equally" to all players.
 
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Lacombe
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sgilbert wrote:
ekted wrote:
Depends what you mean by luck.



Luck is anything that impacts a player's ability to win. That includes pregame set up, cards, random events (even ones that effect all players), etc.


[I'm assuming you mean "Luck is anything random / dependent on chance that impacts..."] I'm with you on that definition so far as cards and in-game events go, but I fail to see how random "pregame set up" [as long as it truly affects all players equally] impacts a player's ability to win.

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Steve Gilbert
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In reality most pre-game set ups affect the game outcome to some degree. For example the map is random in Settlers and affects all players equally before they choose starting locations, but the starting locations are not equal in value, so it actually has a huge luck element.
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Pete Lane
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Rulesjd wrote:
Try El Grande which is all about placement and action card selection.


One might view the "bidding" for action card as a bit of a "luck" thing, as well as the secret voting to place cabillaros from the tower.

I'd recomend:

Small World
Le Havre
Agricola
 
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Lacombe
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sgilbert wrote:
In reality most pre-game set ups affect the game outcome to some degree. For example the map is random in Settlers and affects all players equally before they choose starting locations, but the starting locations are not equal in value, so it actually has a huge luck element.


I actually thought of Settlers right after I posted that, because initial turn order + random setup does have a significant impact on the game, especially in Settlers.

I think, though, that you will be hard-pressed to find a euro-game [or any other game, really] that can truly pass this "turing test" [of sorts].

Perhaps if we talk about a certain "critical mass" of equally or roughly equally valuable starting locations. Settlers has a very small number of "good" starting locations.

Something like Through The Desert, on the other hand, has--at least--dozens of roughly equally valuable starting locations to chose from, so player order almost doesn't matter.

But, if you were to apply a strict rule of thumb, you would have to say that the first player has an advantage because, theoretically, he could puzzle out every last placement and pick the best.

But, I think in something like Through The Desert, the critical mass is high enough that the advantage is no greater than that of picking White in Chess, as an example analogy.

Something like Antike is a little trickier. The starting positions are fewer, so there is less granularity, but the positions are more equally balanced than in Settlers.

Medieval Merchant tackles it a little differently. If you want, you can distribute the starting resources almost perfectly equitably, and most have multiple applications.

The "2"-value cities that each player starts with can go on the board in any number of locations. With a carefully chosen player count / distribution, the advantage is almost negligible.

What would be a "critical mass" or level of granularity that would be acceptable to you, if we can frame the question in that way? At least as many "equally valuable" spots as players?



 
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Lacombe
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stagger lee wrote:


Not even close. whistle
 
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Mark Hamzy
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GiannisS wrote:
Take a look at Caylus, it has absolutely no luck element.
Also Puerto Rico, Brass: Lancashire and Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization have minimum luck factor that doesn't really "mess" with your game plans.


Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization has a lot of luck associated with the military deck. I have played many games not getting what I wanted in tactics/defense/aggression/war...

It also affects the end game scoring when you can't score the areas you want (like science rating) because you didn't come across it during the game.
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