Chick Lewis
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Claremont
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Last night as Russians I was thrilled to get a scrounge event when the German flamethrower had already been eliminated.

Scrounge: "When this event occurs - - - may select one eliminated Weapon - - - from the casualty track and return that weapon to play under the control of one of his units currently without a weapon."

Two of my three remaining units already had weapons. The third was poised to exit the enemy board edge. What to do?

From the rulebook on weapons:

"A weapon may be voluntarily eliminated by its currrent owner at any time."

Decided that the rules meant that the acquiring unit must have no weapon at the instant of the scrounge event. Therefore I could not immediately discard the lmg and take the flamethrower.

I placed the enemy flamethrower on the unit about to exit and made a serious mistake. Since I believed that I would lose the captured FT if I exited, that lonely supressed unit headed back towards the center of the board. This error cost me the game. Discovered after reading the rules for exiting units that even enemy weapons can return to the map with the exited units carrying them.

So, did we decide right, or could I have eliminated the lmg to give the newly-weaponless unit the FT?

What a wonderful game this is !

Chick
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Richard Pardoe
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My first thought was that of interpret strictly - and "any time" means just that "any time".

But this has an interesting consequence...if a weapon could be eliminated at any time, does that mean I could eliminate a weapon just as the scrounge event is revealed in order to place it in the weapons box and then scrounge it and give it to another unit? In effect giving me instant teleportation of a weapon on the battle field. (I know, I know, it's not the same weapon - just one that is identical to the elminated one.)

The way I (over?) think my way out of this (gamey?) tactic is to recall that events interrupt normal game play while the Event is executed. (Game play pauses while the event is resolved). After the event is resolved, play continues.

In other words, events are atomic and can't be divided or interrupted by the players as they resolve (eg by playing an action). So one cannot eliminate weapons in the midst of an Event! trigger (such as Scrounge!).

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Mr G
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A simple view from an inexperienced chap would be that 'currently' is a key word in the event description. The player with the Scrounge would 'read out' the event before doing anything else, thus the unit 'currently' has a weapon.

But who knows?

Regards,

fentum
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David Lanphear
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fentum wrote:
A simple view from an inexperienced chap would be that 'currently' is a key word in the event description. The player with the Scrounge would 'read out' the event before doing anything else, thus the unit 'currently' has a weapon.


LOL! The questioneer is becoming the answerer. Congrats! You have taken another step on the road to addiction, umm enjoyment of this game.



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David desJardins
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For what it's worth, I would read it that you can't eliminate a weapon so that unit can receive the scrounged weapon. But this is the kind of ambiguity that comes up when rules say "at any time".
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Drake Coker
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FWIW, I would agree with Scott (and the rest). Once you read the word "currently" in the event, it's too late to eliminate the weapon since the event has already started and you would have to roll it back to change the "current" game state.

OTOH: I'm not sure I want to try to take the flamethrower away from Ivan after he dropped his MG in the mud and picked it up
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Steve Shockley
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Late to the thread, but I'll just add that this seems to be a case of the rule stating that when a card effect conflicts with something in the rulebook, the card takes precedence.
 
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Mark Buetow
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McHenry
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Not sure it's really a conflict, just a matter of proper order.
 
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Chadwik
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Quote:
Once you read the word "currently" in the event, it's too late to eliminate the weapon since the event has already started and you would have to roll it back to change the "current" game state.

Sounds reasonable to me.
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William Garramone
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Sometimes I think a game designer must be amazed at all the little ambiguities and loopholes that must come up after he / she thinks that surely the game is ready for print. I would be curious to know how many play-test CC went through before Chad felt comfortable enough to say "I think the game is ready now...", and then later "....wow, never saw that card combo ambiguity before."

CC is pretty darned tight; however, I might do a list sometimes on games whose rules ambiguity frustrate you. I think I'll put Games Workshop at the top with perhaps Talisman earning the top seed....LOL
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David desJardins
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If you scan a rulebook and you find the words "at any time", there will almost certainly be ambiguities there.
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