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Subject: Questions on LAT/Pinned Chart and Grenades/VOF handling rss

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Chris Dorrell
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Hi,

Well I've actually got to a point where I can play this frustrating but great game with some confidence that I'm getting most of the rules right. That's only after many hours of studying rules, these forums (thanks for all the input!), FAQs, quick guides, examples etc etc.

So I settled down last night to a session and just seemed to hit all sorts of situations that I wasn't sure how to deal with. So what should have been two or three mission turns became half a turn and back to the rules etc! That's what I mean about frustrating - but it's great fun really.

You will note that I've put the subject of my questions (I'll get there in a minute!) in the thread title. I wish all would do that as it helps so much when looking for guidance. Anyway to the point.

Q1 - If I have a Grenade token (-4) targeting a unit and a small arms VOF from incoming fire on a card , do I just apply the grenade or do I do two checks for damage - one for the Grenade and one for the VOF to the other units on the card. If there is only one unit on the card presumably I just hit it with the grenade and ignore the small arms VOF?

Q2 - The LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy chart title suddenly became ambiguous last night! Do the first four options apply to any unit that is pinned including good order units and then the rest just to LATs. OR does the whole chart only apply to LATs that are either pinned or not pinned? You see I can't even get my question to be unambiguous. shake

Putting it another way - If a good order unit is pinned do I use the LAT and Pinned chart?

Thanks for any guidance - more questions from last night to follow
Chris
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Christopher
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Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q1 - If I have a Grenade token (-4) targeting a unit and a small arms VOF from incoming fire on a card , do I just apply the grenade or do I do two checks for damage - one for the Grenade and one for the VOF to the other units on the card. If there is only one unit on the card presumably I just hit it with the grenade and ignore the small arms VOF?


- only the best VoF is used, plus all modifiers off course
- if there are more units on the card, and only one is under the grenade counter (in the same cover...), the grenade VoF is used to that unit, and the small arms VoF is applied to the other units.


Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q2 - The LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy chart title suddenly became ambiguous last night! Do the first four options apply to any unit that is pinned including good order units and then the rest just to LATs. OR does the whole chart only apply to LATs that are either pinned or not pinned? You see I can't even get my question to be unambiguous. shake

Putting it another way - If a good order unit is pinned do I use the LAT and Pinned chart?


- pinned good order unit: use "pinned" part of 4.2.5
- unpinned LAT: use their specific part of the table, different for each type of LAT
- pinned LAT: use "pinned" part, as stated in 4.2.5.Pinned:
Quote:
(This state takes precedence over any other LAT limitations listed below).


Chris Dorrell wrote:

Thanks for any guidance - more questions from last night to follow
Chris


No problem!
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Josh Martin
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teufen wrote:
Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q1 - If I have a Grenade token (-4) targeting a unit and a small arms VOF from incoming fire on a card , do I just apply the grenade or do I do two checks for damage - one for the Grenade and one for the VOF to the other units on the card. If there is only one unit on the card presumably I just hit it with the grenade and ignore the small arms VOF?


- only the best VoF is used, plus all modifiers off course
- if there are more units on the card, and only one is under the grenade counter (in the same cover...), the grenade VoF is used to that unit, and the small arms VoF is applied to the other units.


Just to add a couple further clarifications to this...
If the Grenade hits, then it counts as a kind of regular VOF, so in your example if there was a grenade hit on a target, and a Small Arms VOF on the card, the Grenade VOF (-4 for US/German grenades) would be used since it's lower than the Small Arms VOF (0). However, multiple Grenade hits on the same target are cumulative with any other grenade hits. So if there are two grenade hits on a single target or cover, then it would be a -8 NCM.

Grenade misses, on the other hand, act as modifiers that affect the entire card. So, a Grenade Miss on a card with a Small Arms VOF would result in a net of -1 NCM.
Grenade Miss (-1) + Small Arms (0) = -1
And there can only ever be one grenade miss marker on a card.
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Blake Phillips
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Good clarification here... I screwed this one up a few times in the first games... adding up grenade misses. Thematically it makes sense - grenades flying all over and bouncing around... missing the target but throwing shrapnel all over the place adding a generalized danger to the entire card including friendlies. And on target grenades... nasty and cumulative. Also keep in mind that units to densely packed under cover markers get another modifier if hit by grenades and arty.

scratched wrote:
teufen wrote:
Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q1 - If I have a Grenade token (-4) targeting a unit and a small arms VOF from incoming fire on a card , do I just apply the grenade or do I do two checks for damage - one for the Grenade and one for the VOF to the other units on the card. If there is only one unit on the card presumably I just hit it with the grenade and ignore the small arms VOF?


- only the best VoF is used, plus all modifiers off course
- if there are more units on the card, and only one is under the grenade counter (in the same cover...), the grenade VoF is used to that unit, and the small arms VoF is applied to the other units.


Just to add a couple further clarifications to this...
If the Grenade hits, then it counts as a kind of regular VOF, so in your example if there was a grenade hit on a target, and a Small Arms VOF on the card, the Grenade VOF (-4 for US/German grenades) would be used since it's lower than the Small Arms VOF (0). However, multiple Grenade hits on the same target are cumulative with any other grenade hits. So if there are two grenade hits on a single target or cover, then it would be a -8 NCM.

Grenade misses, on the other hand, act as modifiers that affect the entire card. So, a Grenade Miss on a card with a Small Arms VOF would result in a net of -1 NCM.
Grenade Miss (-1) + Small Arms (0) = -1
And there can only ever be one grenade miss marker on a card.
 
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Chris Dorrell
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Thanks guys!

The speed and quality of response here is just great. I think membership of the "FoF Rule Support Club" is a privilege.

Anyway I'm clear on the Grenade / VOF subject now.

As for LAT / Pinned I was with this until:-

teufen wrote:
Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q2 - The LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy chart title suddenly became ambiguous last night! Do the first four options apply to any unit that is pinned including good order units and then the rest just to LATs. OR does the whole chart only apply to LATs that are either pinned or not pinned? You see I can't even get my question to be unambiguous. shake

Putting it another way - If a good order unit is pinned do I use the LAT and Pinned chart?

- pinned good order unit: use "pinned" part of 4.2.5
- unpinned LAT: use their specific part of the table, different for each type of LAT
- pinned LAT: use "pinned" part, as stated in 4.2.5.Pinned:
Quote:
(This state takes precedence over any other LAT limitations listed below).


As I understand it Section 4.2 relates to US actions but my question relates to the "LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy" which is used for resolving enemy actions under "9.4. Enemy Activity Checks". Or am I completely on the wrong track?

Cheers
Chris





 
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Christopher
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Chris Dorrell wrote:

As for LAT / Pinned I was with this until:-

teufen wrote:
Chris Dorrell wrote:

Q2 - The LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy chart title suddenly became ambiguous last night! Do the first four options apply to any unit that is pinned including good order units and then the rest just to LATs. OR does the whole chart only apply to LATs that are either pinned or not pinned? You see I can't even get my question to be unambiguous. shake

Putting it another way - If a good order unit is pinned do I use the LAT and Pinned chart?

- pinned good order unit: use "pinned" part of 4.2.5
- unpinned LAT: use their specific part of the table, different for each type of LAT
- pinned LAT: use "pinned" part, as stated in 4.2.5.Pinned:
Quote:
(This state takes precedence over any other LAT limitations listed below).


As I understand it Section 4.2 relates to US actions but my question relates to the "LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy" which is used for resolving enemy actions under "9.4. Enemy Activity Checks". Or am I completely on the wrong track?



Chris, you're right, I misread your question.

for the "Lat and pinned Activity Check Hierarchy", as for the regular Activity Hierarchy, you'll just work yourself from top to bottom, performing the action for the first definition that completely matches the unit/LAT you're looking it up for. That means, indeed, that you first do the pinned/unpinned check...
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Chris Dorrell
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teufen wrote:
Chris, you're right, I misread your question.

for the "Lat and pinned Activity Check Hierarchy", as for the regular Activity Hierarchy, you'll just work yourself from top to bottom, performing the action for the first definition that completely matches the unit/LAT you're looking it up for. That means, indeed, that you first do the pinned/unpinned check...


So at the risk of being pedantic:-

- If a good order enemy unit is pinned, I use the "LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy" chart (first four options).

- If a good order enemy unit is not pinned I use the the "Enemy Defensive (or Offensive) Activity Hierarchy" chart

- If the enemy unit is a pinned or non-pinned LAT, I use the "LAT and Pinned Activity Check Hierarchy" chart.

Please say that's correct....

Thanks again
Chris
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Christopher
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Chris Dorrell wrote:

Please say that's correct....


You're correct!
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Chris Dorrell
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Christopher,

Fantastic - thanks - it shows how good the responses are if I have something right!

I have just posted further questions so any help gratefully received. I think I'm in a phase now where I understand the basics so I'm now starting to consider some of the finer points.

I haven't even thought about vehicles and have done nothing with Fire Missions yet. That's the knack with FoF I think - work with what you understand and nibble away at the rest as you go.

Thanks again
Chris
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Christopher
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Really no problem, Chris!

You're on the right path, leading to only more enjoyment of this great game!
 
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Andreas Kr├╝ger
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Chris Dorrell wrote:

I haven't even thought about vehicles and have done nothing with Fire Missions yet. That's the knack with FoF I think - work with what you understand and nibble away at the rest as you go.

Thanks again
Chris


You do not need vehicles in Normandy, but you really should learn about fire missions. I don't know how I would take out enemy units in good cover without artillery.
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Christopher
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
Chris Dorrell wrote:

I haven't even thought about vehicles and have done nothing with Fire Missions yet. That's the knack with FoF I think - work with what you understand and nibble away at the rest as you go.

Thanks again
Chris


You do not need vehicles in Normandy, but you really should learn about fire missions. I don't know how I would take out enemy units in good cover without artillery.


thumbsup what he says... use your FO's!

I almost alway attach them to my 2 PLT HQs leading the attack - I normally use PLT1 & PLT2 to each lead the attack via a different path (supporting each other where possible/necessary), and keep PLT3 as a reserve or second line advance. I attach Arty FO to the PLT that goes for the primary objective and Mtr FO to the other one.

--edit: typos typos typos shake
 
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Chris Dorrell
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
...... you really should learn about fire missions. I don't know how I would take out enemy units in good cover without artillery.

teufen wrote:
.... thumbsup what he says... use your FO's! ......


Ok - I get the message My next task will be to unravel fire missions - I promise.

Seriously though, thanks for the advice.

Chris
 
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