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Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Stealing Leviathan's Power rss

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David Bell
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Eugene
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Here's kind of a subtle question that came up:

Say Leviathan uses his power during launch. Now his planet is on the cone. Later in the encounter, say during planning or allies step, his power is stolen from him by a flare or a power like plant. What happens to his planet and ships on the cone?

Is it like Macron, where the power is actually being used twice (Once when placing ships/planet, and then again when counting up totals) in which case the card needs a bit of errata? Or is it a fire-and-forget power; once the planet is on the cone, it's worth 20 even if the power is stolen later? Or is it some 3rd possibility?

While the possibility came up, in practice it never happened, so we didn't need to make a final ruling that game. Our best guess is that if the power gets stolen while the planet is on the cone, the planet is returned to its home system, but the ships remain on the cone.
 
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Andy Leber
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I personally would vote that once the ships/planet is sent, it's already in effect... I'm not basing it on anything in particular... It just feels right.

Too complicated otherwise... Say it cancelled the power. Does the planet go home? Does he get to choose 1-4 ships to resend? Does his encounter end because there are no ships left on the hyperspace gate?

I would just say it's too late to steal. And since it's a power for being the offense, it's of no use the anyone else at that point anyways.
 
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Roger
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Leviathan wrote:
As the offense, after the hyperspace gate is aimed, you may use this power to choose one of your home planets that has no opposing ships on it and send it through the gate to attack as a worldship. Take the worldship (with all of your ships that were on it) and place it on the hyperspace gate. After encounter cards are revealed add 20 to your side's total, plus 1 for each ship you have on your worldship. If you lose the encounter, return the worldship to your home system, sending all ships on it to the warp. If you win the encounter, return the wordships to your home system with your ships still on it, although you may leave one to four ships behind on the planet you successfully attacked.


Provided that the Warp is entered correctly (I don't have the cards in front of me...), you are only actually using your power to launch the worldship. Zaps can't counter the +20 bit, because it's not a use. However, I believe that the common interpretation is that if your power is stolen, it's no longer yours. So, in my opinion, ex-Leviathan just has a ship sitting on the gate that's worth nothing towards the encounter. They still launched ships (0 to whatever was on the worldship) as their former power allowed, and so the encounter should resolve as normal, but with their power stolen, the +20 part can't activate, as they no longer have that ability.
 
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Jonathan
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Rogue42 wrote:
Leviathan wrote:
As the offense, after the hyperspace gate is aimed, you may use this power to choose one of your home planets that has no opposing ships on it and send it through the gate to attack as a worldship. Take the worldship (with all of your ships that were on it) and place it on the hyperspace gate. After encounter cards are revealed add 20 to your side's total, plus 1 for each ship you have on your worldship. If you lose the encounter, return the worldship to your home system, sending all ships on it to the warp. If you win the encounter, return the wordships to your home system with your ships still on it, although you may leave one to four ships behind on the planet you successfully attacked.


Provided that the Warp is entered correctly (I don't have the cards in front of me...), you are only actually using your power to launch the worldship. Zaps can't counter the +20 bit, because it's not a use. However, I believe that the common interpretation is that if your power is stolen, it's no longer yours. So, in my opinion, ex-Leviathan just has a ship sitting on the gate that's worth nothing towards the encounter. They still launched ships (0 to whatever was on the worldship) as their former power allowed, and so the encounter should resolve as normal, but with their power stolen, the +20 part can't activate, as they no longer have that ability.


I have to disagree. The worldship is always worth +20 as that is not part of the Leviathan's power. Leviathan's power is the ability to launch a worldship, once the worldship has been launched it will be worth +20 even if the leviathan loses his/her power.
 
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Chris O
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Seeing as Leviathan must use his power during the Launch Phase before he would normally select ships, what is done cannot be undone at a later game phase in the same encounter. That's like trying to zap Mind who looked at you cards right before alliances as his power dictates right before you reveal cards. Completely invalid.

Therefore to steal a power at a phase in which it cannot be used or countered, is a complete waste. That would have to be a bad player. A bad bad player indeed.

A general rule for stealing powers means it prevent FURTHER USE of that power, not prior use.
 
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David Bell
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By the same token, there's a flare that lets the holder steal someone else's power and lose their own until the end of the turn, so what happens if Leviathan steals, say, Mind's power during planning after he already sent a planet?
 
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Chris Withem

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Chipacabra wrote:
By the same token, there's a flare that lets the holder steal someone else's power and lose their own until the end of the turn, so what happens if Leviathan steals, say, Mind's power during planning after he already sent a planet?


invalid. plant wild-flare happens after alliances, where as mind happens before alliances...but putting mind aside, if leviathan were to steal a power that helped him...its hard to say. it comes up with sorceror wild flare as well. does the worldship continue to count +20 to leviathan's side. I have no clear answer and would prefer a ruling. Its a tough decision since i believe he is the first "combat" power to not have a use during the reveal phase.

That being said, this set really messed with the order of things further and complicated things that ought not be complicated (here's glaring at you chronos.)
 
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David Bell
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Eugene
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Sorry, I had a brainfreeze there. Replace Mind with any of the planning or resolution powers, really.
 
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Roger
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umfpt wrote:
I have to disagree. The worldship is always worth +20 as that is not part of the Leviathan's power. Leviathan's power is the ability to launch a worldship, once the worldship has been launched it will be worth +20 even if the leviathan loses his/her power.


That is precisely my point, though. The +20 *is* a part of Leviathan's power. It's written on the card. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say anything to the effect of "attacking with your planets gives you +20". That's unique to Leviathan. That aspect of its' power is just not used, so it can't be zapped. However, if the power is stolen, the player-formerly-known-as-Leviathan no longer has possession of the card, so essentially they just have a useless planet sitting on the gate.
 
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Chris Withem

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Funny Enough, Genius is the only "alternate win" alien that does not have a use on the start of the turn phase. so sadly you cannot zap him as he wins the game like you can tick-tock and masochist =(

All-in-all, it is very confusing whether or not Leviathan gets +20 from using his power during the launch phase, or from having a planet on the hyperspace gate. I really hate how the wording and terminology used in the expansion does not match with the base set.
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