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Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Questions Abound...!! (part duex) rss

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Chris Withem

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a few of my questions got overread in light of a debate about something else...

1) Duece Wild Flare - Limited to a single card? or can i spam cards as a faux-fodder/reserve?

2) Can plant graft a power that was stolen with the plant wild-flare?

3) What happens first? Guerilla using his weaken power, or compensation/rewards? 1 or 4 cards is a huge difference (or 0 or 4 in the case of his super flare)
 
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Mark Bigney
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Le mot que tu cherches est "deux".
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Jonathan
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1. Limited to a single card.

2. No. Plant cannot graft a power if the alien no longer has that power.

3. I would say that the Guerrilla's power goes off first otherwise an ally for the defense with 4 ships would be able to take 4 ships out of the warp before they sent 3 ships to the warp.

 
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Ian Redford
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3. I agree that Guerrilla's power should go off first (since that goes with the whole "Attrition" idea), but I can also see the other perspective. I'd love a FAQ response to this specific question.
 
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Michael Saggers
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3. Using the rules for timing conflicts would suggest the Guerrilla's power as the offence would go first. If the Guerrilla is the defence and loses, the timing is irrelevant as defender rewards are not up for grabs.
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Chris Withem

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umfpt wrote:

2. No. Plant cannot graft a power if the alien no longer has that power.


Plant Wild-Flare: As a main player, after allies are assigned, you may steal the power of any ally (yours or your opponent's) for that encounter. You have the stolen power instead of your own, and the affected ally does not have the power, until the end of the encounter.

consider this scenario...

Spiff launches 4 ships at Plant
Alliances offered/taken
Spiff plant-wild flares ally's power (let's say he takes Virus)
Plant grafts Spiff or does he graft Virus? (assuming he has the colony on one of Spiff's home planets)
 
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Daniel Gorney
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NoobSauce wrote:
a few of my questions got overread in light of a debate about something else...

1) Duece Wild Flare - Limited to a single card? or can i spam cards as a faux-fodder/reserve?


It is limited to a single card. Abilities/Cards that allow multiple discards use phrases along the lines of "any or all cards that blah blah blah", while the Deuce flare simply says asks about a single card. ("If you have an attack card..."). Note that a given Flare may only be used once per encounter, so you'll only ever get one card out of the Deuce Wild.

Quote:

3) What happens first? Guerilla using his weaken power, or compensation/rewards? 1 or 4 cards is a huge difference (or 0 or 4 in the case of his super flare)


Guerrilla's power occurs before compensation, but his power will never have any effect on compensation. (Since Guerrilla's power only happens when he loses, and, by definition, only the losing player can ever be entitled to compensation.) Since Guerrilla's power only kills the ships of his victorious opponent (who won't be receiving any compensation since he didn't lose), compensation will never be effected by Attrition.

Compensation occurs during the Resolution phase, the exact timing order of which is:

1.) Carry out the effects of victory/loss (loser's ships go to the warp, colonies are gained/lost, allies receive Defender rewards if the Defense won, etc)
2.) If a successful deal was made, the terms are carried out.
3.) Players involved in an unsuccessful deal (if any) each lose three ships to the warp.
4.) Compensation is collected.


Guerrilla's power, on the other hand, happens before any of that, at the end of the Reveal phase. (i.e., right before the Resolution phase.) Thus, Guerrilla's power happens before Defender Rewards and it does affect the number of ships that will be left when it comes time to determine Reward quantity.

Edit: Hmm, looking at Guerrilla's sheet, his power is marked as occurring during the Resolution phase. This makes me think that the true ordering of the Resolution step is:

(1.) Determine who won or lost.
(2.) Carry out the effects of victory/loss (loser's ships go to the warp, colonies are gained/lost, allies receive Defender rewards if the Defense won, etc)
(3.) If a successful deal was made, the terms are carried out.
(4.) Players involved in an unsuccessful deal (if any) each lose three ships to the warp.
(5.) Compensation is collected.

Guerrilla's power says "after you lose an encounter" not "after any encounter in which you lose"; thus leading me to believe that his power triggers immediately after it has been determined that he did indeed lose the encounter, rather than waiting until clear after the encounter has finished resolving before triggering. So, Guerrilla's power would trigger immediately after (1.), thus killing off enemy ships before Defender Rewards are assessed and handed out during (2.).

I could see an argument for Guerrilla having to wait until after (2.), however. Hmm. I'm not certain, but if I had to rule on it I would go with Attrition happening before Defender Rewards.

As mentioned above, the Timing Rule would support this ruling.
 
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Chris Withem

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dgorney wrote:
NoobSauce wrote:
a few of my questions got overread in light of a debate about something else...

1) Duece Wild Flare - Limited to a single card? or can i spam cards as a faux-fodder/reserve?


It is limited to a single card. Abilities/Cards that allow multiple discards use phrases along the lines of "any or all cards that blah blah blah", while the Deuce flare simply says asks about a single card. ("If you have an attack card..."). Note that a given Flare may only be used once per encounter, so you'll only ever get one card out of the Deuce Wild.



Then how about Locust? This is why I ask. Duece-wild flare would be blatantly overpowered if they could use more then one card, but the same question (in a different context) comes up with Locust. Can Locust devour more then one planet in the same regroup phase? Seeing how Locust's power is optional, this is a very likely scenario. It's also interesting to note that Locust's super-flare limits him to devouring one planet in which he has the most ships of all other players on the planet.

As for the Guerilla argument, we've played him the nice way, but i've personally already declared him a "mean" alien (along with cudgel and ethic etc etc). If his power works before rewards/compensations then he is indeed very very mean.
 
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Andy Leber
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NoobSauce wrote:
umfpt wrote:

2. No. Plant cannot graft a power if the alien no longer has that power.


Plant Wild-Flare: As a main player, after allies are assigned, you may steal the power of any ally (yours or your opponent's) for that encounter. You have the stolen power instead of your own, and the affected ally does not have the power, until the end of the encounter.

consider this scenario...

Spiff launches 4 ships at Plant
Alliances offered/taken
Spiff plant-wild flares ally's power (let's say he takes Virus)
Plant grafts Spiff or does he graft Virus? (assuming he has the colony on one of Spiff's home planets)


If your quoting of the card is correct (I don't have it in front of me), then you can only graft allies, not the attacking player, so it would be Virus
 
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Roger
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Holmes108 wrote:
NoobSauce wrote:
umfpt wrote:

2. No. Plant cannot graft a power if the alien no longer has that power.


Plant Wild-Flare: As a main player, after allies are assigned, you may steal the power of any ally (yours or your opponent's) for that encounter. You have the stolen power instead of your own, and the affected ally does not have the power, until the end of the encounter.

consider this scenario...

Spiff launches 4 ships at Plant
Alliances offered/taken
Spiff plant-wild flares ally's power (let's say he takes Virus)
Plant grafts Spiff or does he graft Virus? (assuming he has the colony on one of Spiff's home planets)


If your quoting of the card is correct (I don't have it in front of me), then you can only graft allies, not the attacking player, so it would be Virus


I think there's a bit of confusion, so for clarity:

Player A: Plant
Player B: Spiff
Player C: Virus

* A has a colony on one of B's planets.
* B is on offense and draws A as for Destiny.
* Either A or B invites C as an ally and C accepts one of them.
* After allies are formed, B plays Plant Wild.

Plant Wild wrote:
As a main player, after allies are assigned, you may steal the power of any ally (yours or your opponent's) for that encounter. You have the stolen power instead of your own, and the affected ally down not have the power, until the end of the encounter.


* B is now Virus, not Spiff.
* A uses their power to steal B's power, because they have a colony on one of B's planets.

Plant wrote:
You have the power of Grafting. As a main player, before encounter cards are selected, you may use this power to graft any one player in whose home system you have at least one colony. If that player has not lost his or her power, you steal that power until the end of the encounter. If you lose your own power, you may not graft any power until you get your own back.


* As B is Virus, they steals Virus, not Spiff.

Now, if instead A had a colony in C's system and NOT in B's system, the Plant's power couldn't activate, as C's former power (Virus) was stolen by Player B.


 
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Jake Prolance
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I had a couple of quick questions:

1.) Could you ionic gas ghoul since ghoul's reward is a power, not an actual defeder ally reward?

2.) Could you transfer a second ship with plasma thrusters into an attack encounter if you are the macron (which only allows you to send one ship into the encounter)?
 
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Chris Withem

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phil1987 wrote:
I had a couple of quick questions:

1.) Could you ionic gas ghoul since ghoul's reward is a power, not an actual defeder ally reward?



Ionic Gas - Stops Compensation and Rewards. Play after the winner of an encounter is determined. No compensation or defensive ally rewards may be collected this encounter

You have the power to Feast. As a main player, after you win an encounter, use this power. For each opposing ship sent to the warp as a result of the encounter, you receive one defender reward (either retrieve one of your ships from the warp or draw one card from the deck).

you can indeed ionic gas ghoul...

phill1987 wrote:

2.) Could you transfer a second ship with plasma thrusters into an attack encounter if you are the macron (which only allows you to send one ship into the encounter)?


I don't generally play techs, nor do we play rewards deck either (really big sad face) but i do believe that tech cards trump alien powers in this sense. This tech card "normally" lets an alien exceed the 4-ship limit, so i do not see why it would limit macron to still only 1 ship per encounter.
 
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cosmicclan cosmicclan
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phil1987 wrote:
I had a couple of quick questions:

1.) Could you ionic gas ghoul since ghoul's reward is a power, not an actual defeder ally reward?

2.) Could you transfer a second ship with plasma thrusters into an attack encounter if you are the macron (which only allows you to send one ship into the encounter)?


With regards to ionic gas, it prevents players from receiving [1] COMPENSATION (which is an instance where a player plays a Negotiate versus an Attack card) in which case they draw from the player who played an attack card and [2] when they receive REWARDS as an ALLY, which is why it is termed as a DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARD. With regards to ghoul, the ability triggers as a main player and although the ability, when won, gets defender rewards, they are not defensive ALLY rewards. So no, I believe you can't ionic gas the power since 1. ionic gas is meant for those two instances (COMPENSATION and DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARDS) and 2. ghoul's power is a main player and it is only defensive rewards. Although you can cosmic zap it to prevent the cards.

As for macron, as mentioned above, I believe if the tech allows you to send beyond your maximum of 4 ships, I don't see why it can't let macron send 2 ships in this case even though its power only allows it to send one.
 
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Chris Withem

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cosmicclan wrote:
phil1987 wrote:
I had a couple of quick questions:

1.) Could you ionic gas ghoul since ghoul's reward is a power, not an actual defeder ally reward?

2.) Could you transfer a second ship with plasma thrusters into an attack encounter if you are the macron (which only allows you to send one ship into the encounter)?


With regards to ionic gas, it prevents players from receiving [1] COMPENSATION (which is an instance where a player plays a Negotiate versus an Attack card) in which case they draw from the player who played an attack card and [2] when they receive REWARDS as an ALLY, which is why it is termed as a DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARD. With regards to ghoul, the ability triggers as a main player and although the ability, when won, gets defender rewards, they are not defensive ALLY rewards. So no, I believe you can't ionic gas the power since 1. ionic gas is meant for those two instances (COMPENSATION and DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARDS) and 2. ghoul's power is a main player and it is only defensive rewards. Although you can cosmic zap it to prevent the cards.

As for macron, as mentioned above, I believe if the tech allows you to send beyond your maximum of 4 ships, I don't see why it can't let macron send 2 ships in this case even though its power only allows it to send one.


not to be short-tempered. (Just got done with a really bad CE game. but how do you differentiate between Defensive reward and Defensive Ally reward.
 
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cosmicclan cosmicclan
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NoobSauce wrote:
cosmicclan wrote:
phil1987 wrote:
I had a couple of quick questions:

1.) Could you ionic gas ghoul since ghoul's reward is a power, not an actual defeder ally reward?

2.) Could you transfer a second ship with plasma thrusters into an attack encounter if you are the macron (which only allows you to send one ship into the encounter)?


With regards to ionic gas, it prevents players from receiving [1] COMPENSATION (which is an instance where a player plays a Negotiate versus an Attack card) in which case they draw from the player who played an attack card and [2] when they receive REWARDS as an ALLY, which is why it is termed as a DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARD. With regards to ghoul, the ability triggers as a main player and although the ability, when won, gets defender rewards, they are not defensive ALLY rewards. So no, I believe you can't ionic gas the power since 1. ionic gas is meant for those two instances (COMPENSATION and DEFENSIVE ALLY REWARDS) and 2. ghoul's power is a main player and it is only defensive rewards. Although you can cosmic zap it to prevent the cards.

As for macron, as mentioned above, I believe if the tech allows you to send beyond your maximum of 4 ships, I don't see why it can't let macron send 2 ships in this case even though its power only allows it to send one.


not to be short-tempered. (Just got done with a really bad CE game. but how do you differentiate between Defensive reward and Defensive Ally reward.


It's ok to be short-tempered, I've personally had my fair share of CE games where I've reached a point of never ending frustration but thats a part of the game (which makes Cosmic interesting), but on that note...

It is simple really concerning the two terms. The term defensive reward applies so that Ghoul can take from either deck of cards (Main deck or Rewards deck). It is the alien's ability to use its power to "Feast" on its enemies. Looking at Ghoul and the way it gains rewards is unique in its own right. Since it can only use its ability as a main player, it can gain rewards NOT ONLY as a defensive player, but as an OFFENSIVE player as well. In doing so, you wouldn't call those defensive rewards now would you? I bet the makers of this game implied that, and that even if you would gain "Offensive rewards" the term is awkward since up until now you would only have been able to draw cards for rewards if you were part of the defense.

Being so, I think the word ALLY on Ionic Gas is meant to differentiate the two different instances: one in which you gain defensive ally rewards as part of a successful defense, and the other, a new ability where you can feast on the dead and gain rewards, either defensively or offensively.
 
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Chris Withem

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I think you are reading too much into the literal text of the card. Ghoul receives defensive rewards in the same way Mercenary receives defensive rewards (as offense) They are both under the influence of ionic gas just as regular defensive rewards and negotiated compensation.

Edit: straight from the rule book, pg 11 under if the defense won

Defense allies also get a special bonus called defender rewards: For each ship a defensive ally contributed to the defense that player must draw a card from the deck or take one of his/her ships from the warp...

Both the rule book and Ghoul's (and Mercenary's) power states that they may gain defender rewards
 
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Rewards are rewards are rewards; there is no difference between a "reward", a "defender reward", and a "defensive ally reward" (other than the fact that there are special effects that let you get a reward at times other than when you are a successful defensive ally).

The term "defender" is really unnecessary, and actually will become a problem if FFG ever implements something like the reverse cone mechanic from Eon Expansion Set 9. I'm not sure why they use this term so inconsistently across the rules, powers, and cards, but calling rewards "defender rewards" is kind of like calling compensation "negotiation compensation" -- sure, that's normally what generates it, but not always!

CE rules: both rewards and defender rewards
Wild Barbarian: rewards
Macron: rewards
Ionic Gas: defensive ally rewards
CI rules: defender rewards
Ghoul/Wild Ghoul: defender reward
Mercenary/Wild Mercenary: defender rewards
Super Mercenary: rewards

In general, the instances that don't use the word "defender" are talking about normal "defender" rewards, whereas the instances that do use the word "defender" are talking about special-case rewards NOT in the context of a successful defensive ally. All of this would have been so much cleaner if they were consistently called (only) rewards, and the rules simply stated the default circumstances under which rewards are granted. (Stuff like this makes me crazy ... we've had three decades to understand how the game works and get the terminology right, yet we are still confusing the crap out of newbies with inconsistent terminology, missing definitions, and bad FAQ answers like "a deal is exactly the same as a win".)
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Chris O
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I vote Bill for Cosmic Encounter FFG official wording and anti-confusion specialist. Who's with me? ninja
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Chris Withem

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So here's some questions for you Bill...

Using the logic form the faq, we can assume a successful deal is a successful encounter, and a win is also the same as a successful encounter. Now. is a loss the same as losing an encounter?

I ask for several reasons...

Can you fungus wild flare on a successful deal? If so which ships does he capture?

can you blow a planet up via guerilla wild flare on an unsuccessful deal? if so do i then get to choose which planet to blow up? (the same question applies to shadow wild flare and failed deal via emotion control)

"all of the opponents who opposed you" does this affect allies that were in the encounter but set home due to double-negotiates (or emotion control) being played?
 
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Roger
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NoobSauce wrote:
Can you fungus wild flare on a successful deal? If so which ships does he capture?


Fungus states "As a main player or ally, after you win an encounter in which you have at least one ship, use this power to capture any losing ships, stacking them under one or more of your ships in the encounter instead of sending them to the warp". No side is losing, and no ships are headed to the warp during a successful deal.

NoobSauce wrote:
can you blow a planet up via guerilla wild flare on an unsuccessful deal? if so do i then get to choose which planet to blow up? (the same question applies to shadow wild flare and failed deal via emotion control)


Guerilla Wild states "After you lose an encounter as the defense, you may blow your own planet up rather than allow it to be captured." Since your planet isn't being captured (everyone involved should be headed to the great sinkhole in the sky), no planet can be blown up, unless you have a failed deal and some other game mechanic allows someone to capture one of your planets.

NoobSauce wrote:
"all of the opponents who opposed you" does this affect allies that were in the encounter but set home due to double-negotiates (or emotion control) being played?


I suppose this is in reference to Ghoul Wild and/or Fury Wild? If they were against you during reveal, they should be targeted by both of these affects, as the current "Deal == Win" FAQ entry states. If you successfully deal, Ghoul Wild triggers. If the deal is failed, Fury Wild triggers. Even if the "Deal == Win" is ever revoked (or you just choose to ignore it), the Fury Wild will still trigger, as a failed deal is a lost encounter.
 
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Chris Withem

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What does "capture" exactly mean? I would presume it is to mean you're not coexisiting on that particular planet. If that's not the case and in the event that players are trading point for point can I then blow up the planet?

Also along those lines. Can i cudgel flare on a successful deal when trading points?

"all of the opponents who opposed you" also refers to Guerilla's alien ability. Would he still weaken allies on double-negotiates?
 
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NoobSauce wrote:
What does "capture" exactly mean? I would presume it is to mean you're not coexisiting on that particular planet. If that's not the case and in the event that players are trading point for point can I then blow up the planet?


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capture

This does require a bit of interpretation, but I think we can safely assume that "capture" means to take by force. That said, you're still not losing the encounter when you swap one-for-one, so the Guerrilla Wild won't trigger, anyway.

NoobSauce wrote:
Also along those lines. Can i cudgel flare on a successful deal when trading points?


Wild Flare? Absolutely.

NoobSauce wrote:
"all of the opponents who opposed you" also refers to Guerilla's alien ability. Would he still weaken allies on double-negotiates?


If you fail the deal, yes. As Guerrilla is losing the encounter, it's power triggers. My interpretation of this event would be as follows: Guerrilla's opponent and allies would be weakened as per its power. Then both main players would lose three ships due to the failed deal.

I'm going to backpedal on this a bit, as further review of the rulebook states that allies do return home during Reveal during a Double Negotiate, so only Guerrilla's opponent could potentially be targeted by its power, as allies have been removed by the time Resolution has rolled around.
 
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Chris Withem

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So in a failed deal vs Guerrilla. the opposing player would lose 6 total ships? (assuming he had originally sent 4 in the hyperspace gate) That seems a bit "mean" in a way that probably wasn't intended. Something like this could completely hose Amoeba if somebody were to Emotion Control and then Quash.
 
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Roger
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Thus the price you pay for sending X ships against Guerrilla. If you win, you're going to lose X-1 ships where X > 1. It's power exists to make you think twice about fighting them with a massive fleet. I wouldn't be playing a Negotiate in this situation, because you're likely to just have Guerrilla take you down with them.
 
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Chris Withem

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NoobSauce wrote:

Can you fungus wild flare on a successful deal? If so which ships does he capture?


This question still hasn't been answered =(

Fungus Wild Flare wrote:
When you win as the defense in your home system, you may collect all opposing ships in the encounter and place them in a circle around your home system. They now count toward your total when you are the defense in your home system, but do not go to the warp if you lose as the defense. Captured ships do not have special characteristics. When you discard this card, the captured ships return to their owner's colonies, if any.
 
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