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Subject: When or how to apply "Do not use with" rss

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Crazy Bob
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If all aliens are chosen at start facedown, how do you deal with the "do not use with" aliens, such as gambler?
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Toomai Glittershine
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There are a few things you can do:

1. Since Gambler's the one with the restriction, toss him out and draw something else.
2. Toss out both aliens and draw again, making the situation less unfair for the Gambler chooser.
3. Ignore the restriction.
a) If Sorcerer switches cards, Gambler then bluffs about the card he played, but Sorcerer is about to reveal.
b) The Magician/Oracle interaction isn't as clean, but one thing you can do is have Magician play his card, Oracle play two, then have Magician take one and have the option to replace his card with it.
 
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Ken H.
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Good question -- they should address it in the FAQ.

The problem goes beyond the two players who have conflicting aliens. If those two are allowed to choose again, then they are making their choice with the knowledge of what other players have already chosen. So, they might be more inclined to take Anti-Matter, after seeing that someone has chosen Warpish, for example. This doesn't really seem fair to the other players.

How about this solution: Assuming you go with the normal "draw 2 and choose 1", you could just say that if there is a conflict, both conflicted players must discard their choice, and use the other alien that was dealt to them. If those aliens also conflict (which is about 1 in a zillion chance), then both players draw one random alien from the pile, and use that one. Repeat if there is still a conflict.

It's not entirely fair that they don't get their first choice, but you can just count it as the price you pay for choosing an alien with a restriction.

Marginally related subject: Healer and Masochist should also have "Do not use with" restrictions on them.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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There aren't that many in FFG's version, but there were a bunch in EON's version. How we handled it was during the power selection as you were deciding which power(s) to keep, you would announce at the bottom, "Does anyone have power-x?" If so, you discarded that power and drew another one.

-shnar
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mar hawkman
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Rubric wrote:
Marginally related subject: Healer and Masochist should also have "Do not use with" restrictions on them.
Not any more than Virus and Anti-Matter.
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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marhawkman wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Marginally related subject: Healer and Masochist should also have "Do not use with" restrictions on them.
Not any more than Virus and Anti-Matter. :p


Virus can attack AM with only 1 ship, and has an advantage over AM. Healer and Masochist is a long pointless game for Masochist.
 
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Big Head Zach
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You could replace Masochist with Warpish and get the same complaint.

How to solve? Use whatever abilities you can to neutralize the other's power. Plague, ally on offense against them, etc.

It's not technically broken...just an uphill battle.
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Matthew Cary
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If we are being technical, Symbiote has a "do not use with" but that has more to do with how many people are playing than the aliens they are using.

If you get Symbiote, you count the heads at the table & throw him out if there aren't enough components.
 
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Ken H.
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bhz1 wrote:
You could replace Masochist with Warpish and get the same complaint.


Well. I wasn't trying to get into a debate about which powers weaken other powers.

My points was that Masochist is completely negated when Healer is in the game. It's the same as playing with no power. On the other hand, Warpish can still benefit from Healer's own ships being in the warp, and Virus can still beat other players even if he loses encounters to Anti-matter.

Masochist/Healer is the only combination I know of where a player has near zero chance of ever getting a benefit from his power, even when the conflicting power is not in the encounter. It's not just isolated encounters here and there, it's the whole game. And it's not just part of the power, it's his whole power.

Quote:
It's not technically broken...just an uphill battle.


None of the combinations mentioned are broken in terms of how the rules function, but Masochist/Healer is very much broken in terms of playability and fun levels. Honestly, I wouldn't want to be Healer in that match either, as it's no fun to completely block another player from enjoying the game.

-----------------------

Anyway, back to the subject: here is another suggestion for resolving Do Not Use With restrictions:

Who ever picks their power first gets to keep it. You can leave your choice face down, so it doesn't influence others' choices, but announce when you have committed. Then, if another player picks a conflicting power after you, that player must switch to his other draw (or draw from the pile if the other one still conflicts with something).
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mar hawkman
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Bustoffson wrote:
marhawkman wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Marginally related subject: Healer and Masochist should also have "Do not use with" restrictions on them.
Not any more than Virus and Anti-Matter.
Virus can attack AM with only 1 ship, and has an advantage over AM. Healer and Masochist is a long pointless game for Masochist.
That's not really an advantage. Sure his total will come up one point less than healer's would, but he'll never be able to actually use his power. I suppose a better example would be warrior or warpish who has a power that automatically increses their total. Does Anti-matter completely totally hose them? yes, yes it does.
 
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Ben Hawks
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marhawkman wrote:
Bustoffson wrote:
marhawkman wrote:
Rubric wrote:
Marginally related subject: Healer and Masochist should also have "Do not use with" restrictions on them.
Not any more than Virus and Anti-Matter.
Virus can attack AM with only 1 ship, and has an advantage over AM. Healer and Masochist is a long pointless game for Masochist.
That's not really an advantage. Sure his total will come up one point less than healer's would, but he'll never be able to actually use his power. I suppose a better example would be warrior or warpish who has a power that automatically increses their total. Does Anti-matter completely totally hose them? yes, yes it does.


Anti-matter only hoses Warrior or Warpish when they are directly fighting. Healer can completely screw Masochist even when Healer is not present in the encounter. The big combat powers can use their powers effectively when they are not fighting Anti-matter. Masochist can never use its power when Healer is in the game.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:

3. Ignore the restriction.
a) If Sorcerer switches cards, Gambler then bluffs about the card he played, but Sorcerer is about to reveal.
b) The Magician/Oracle interaction isn't as clean, but one thing you can do is have Magician play his card, Oracle play two, then have Magician take one and have the option to replace his card with it.

This is my favorite solution, at least for powers like these where the conflict resolution is relatively obvious.

Rubric wrote:
Who ever picks their power first gets to keep it. You can leave your choice face down, so it doesn't influence others' choices, but announce when you have committed. Then, if another player picks a conflicting power after you, that player must switch to his other draw (or draw from the pile if the other one still conflicts with something).

I like this a lot because it encourages people to choose quickly! It's like the (brilliant) last-card-doesn't-count rule in Apples to Apples. This is a good option for truly broken power conflicts that don't have a nice, elegant resolution.

I'm inclined to think that Healer/Masochist is one of those situations, but as others have already implied, how far down the slippery slope do we slide to accommodate (e.g.) Masochist in the universe? What about Mobius Tubes, and Rifts? What about Trader and Hand Zap when Genius is playing? Fortunately none of my players really like the alternate-win powers, so it doesn't come up much around here.

I probably wouldn't choose Masochist unless I had no other alternative, and if I was "forced" to play the power, I sure would be miserable if Healer's inverted-scrotum swamp-face showed up at the party. As much as I hate to admit it, this power does seem like a good candidate for a tramp-stamp to warn the newbies that misery lies ahead.
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Chris Withem

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I'm a much greater fan of both players repick. Solves all problems and all squabbling. Though I do like your solution for magician/oracle. gambler/sorcerer is a lame one though. its not so much a "do not use" its a "gambler gets hosed in every possible way vs. sorcerer. just play the negotiate" clause.
 
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Andy Stout
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Last night we had both Macron and Shadow in a game, and we agreed that it would be pretty much unwinnable for Macron and redealt. Not quite as bad as Healer/Masochist, but I'd argue that it is similarly completely horrible.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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NoobSauce wrote:
gambler/sorcerer is a lame one though. its not so much a "do not use" its a "gambler gets hosed in every possible way vs. sorcerer. just play the negotiate" clause.
Um, how is that? Gambler can play a high card, but then say that he played a 04 if Sorcerer switches. As long as you make sure that Sorcerer doesn't look at the card he gets when he switches (which normally is fine), I don't see how you think it's a one-sided thing.
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Chris Withem

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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
NoobSauce wrote:
gambler/sorcerer is a lame one though. its not so much a "do not use" its a "gambler gets hosed in every possible way vs. sorcerer. just play the negotiate" clause.
Um, how is that? Gambler can play a high card, but then say that he played a 04 if Sorcerer switches. As long as you make sure that Sorcerer doesn't look at the card he gets when he switches (which normally is fine), I don't see how you think it's a one-sided thing.


we play under teh assumption that when Sorcerer switches, players get to look at the new cards. I suppose you could play in a variant where gambler has to bluff about sorcerer's card. *shrug*
 
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Just a Bill
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NoobSauce wrote:
we play under teh assumption that when Sorcerer switches, players get to look at the new cards. I suppose you could play in a variant where gambler has to bluff about sorcerer's card. *shrug*

Nothing on Sorcerer's power says he gets to look at the face of the card before it's revealed (in fact, his power works when the cards are specifically in an unrevealed state).

Not only does the suggested resolution work perfectly (still letting each alien get some benefit out of his power), but as it turns out, it's essentially an "official house rule": this specific interaction was suggested by a player way back in Encounter magazine volume 1 number 4, and the response by Eon designer Jack Kittredge was that he liked it, and although the designers generally avoided putting specific interactions like that on powers he thought it was a good house rule.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Bumping this thread, just to note that Sorcerer does not read "Do not play with Gambler". Therefore, I would argue that a literal reading of the instructions gives priority to Sorcerer (because nothing says that it cannot be used with Gambler), while preventing Gambler from being in play if Sorcerer is.

This does not solve the original poster's issue, but suggests that with hidden powers, Gambler should ask whether anybody is Sorcerer (which can be done anonymously, if necessary, by secretly putting tokens in a bag: if the bag contains a "Sorcerer" token at the end, then there is a Sorcerer at the table), while the Sorcerer player can keep his power.
 
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