Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

Magic: The Gathering» Forums » Rules

Subject: "nonbasic lands are mountains": does the card keep its abilities? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Eric O. LEBIGOT
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Magus of the Moon's ability reads:
Quote:
Nonbasic lands are Mountains
Does this mean that only the subtype of these lands is replaced by "Mountain"? In particular, do they keep their abilities (along with gaining "{T}: Add {R} to your mana pool")? The Oracle mentions that they keep their supertype ([nonbasic] land), so I am wondering whether the supertype is the only thing copied from the original nonbasic land, or if the subtype is the only thing changed from the original land (along with the addition of the usual {T}:… ability).

An example is Urza's Factory ("Land - Urza's"). Does Magus of the Moon simply transform it into the same card, with the same abilities, but with type "Land - Mountain"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jed Roguski
United States
Dumfries
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nope. Cards affected by Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon become straight up Mountains in type, supertype, and ability. Nothing more or less. If they were to simply gain "Mountain" the "Moons" would be templated like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hanlon
United States
Plover
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ragudaddy wrote:
Nope. Cards affected by Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon become straight up Mountains in type, supertype, and ability. Nothing more or less. If they were to simply gain "Mountain" the "Moons" would be templated like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.


Most of this is correct. Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon will not change the supertype of a card.

Quote:
Non-basic lands that are turned into Mountains with Blood Moon are still non-basic. Blood Moon does nothing to change the land's Supertype.


So, if you have this land in play:

Seat of the Synod
Artifact Land
T: Add U to your mana pool.

Blood Moon would make it this:

Seat of the Synod
Artifact Land - Mountain
T: Add R to your mana pool.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ragudaddy wrote:
Nope. Cards affected by Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon become straight up Mountains in type, supertype, and ability.


That's not precisely true -- Blood Moon et al does not add or take away any supertypes. A Legendary nonbasic land would become a Mountain, but its name doesn't change, it's still Legendary, and it doesn't become basic.

Tolarian Academy, for example, becomes a Legendary (nonbasic) Mountain named Tolarian Academy. It taps for a single red mana and does not tap for any blue mana. Dark Depths becomes a Legendary Snow Mountain named Dark Depths that now taps for red mana and no longer has any ability to remove or even care about ice counters.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam O'Brien
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Even Cleverer Overtext
badge
Every time someone activates this overtext, it takes a year off my life. Hover often please!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It should be noted that static abilities of cards still matter. So for example, with a Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in play the following would read:

City of Brass

Land - Mountain
T: Add R to your mana pool

Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to its controller.

The damage ability still happens because it is a static ability. So you would just have the worst mountain ever, apart from a Blood Moon'ed Sorrow's Path.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
By the way -- from an actual gameplay perspective, that's pretty much the point of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon. In practice, they're used to mess up the opponent's nonbasic lands so that the opponent can't get the colors of mana or abilities that the opponent thought he or she was going to get.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam O'Brien
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Even Cleverer Overtext
badge
Every time someone activates this overtext, it takes a year off my life. Hover often please!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dbuel wrote:
Dark Depths becomes a Legendary Snow Mountain named Dark Depths that now taps for red mana and no longer has any ability to remove or even care about ice counters.


To clarify this, it would still have the ice counters on it, and would resume caring about them should the Blood Moon effect later get removed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
3dicebombers wrote:
It should be noted that static abilities of cards still matter. So for example, with a Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in play the following would read:

City of Brass

Land - Mountain
T: Add R to your mana pool

Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to its controller.


I'm afraid that's not so -- Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon cause lands to lose all their abilities generated from their text.

Nonbasic lands, of course.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McEvoy
Canada
Mountain
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
3dicebombers wrote:
It should be noted that static abilities of cards still matter.


Really? What about costs?

Consider Glacial Chasm http://magiccards.info/ia/en/331.html. It has the static abilities "You cannot attack." and "All damage dealt to you is reduced to 0". (and it has Cumulative Upkeep: 2 life; and it has a triggered 'when it comes into play sacrifice a land')

Until today I would have assumed that, under a blood moon, it simply became a mountain. No cumulative upkeep, no attack restriction, no damage reduction, and when it came into play, no sacrifice. Now I see you say that static abilities still exist, so the attack and damage reduction also still exist. Do the upkeep and comes-into-play-triggered sacrifice persist through the blood moon, too?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thatmarkguy wrote:
Until today I would have assumed that, under a blood moon, it simply became a mountain. No cumulative upkeep, no attack restriction, no damage reduction, and when it came into play, no sacrifice.


That is correct.

Quote:
305.7. If an effect changes a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It should be noted, if we're going to be complete, that if a given nonbasic land says "This land enters the battlefield tapped," or "This land enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it," it still will, even with Blood Moon out. And even though Blood Moon then removes this ability!

This is because abilities on the lands that modify how those lands themselves enter the battlefield are checked before checking whether Blood Moon (or anything else) removes those same abilities.

So a Vivid Grove, for example, will enter the battlefield tapped, and will have two charge counters on it; but it will be a (nonbasic) Mountain, will tap for red mana, won't tap for green mana, and won't have any ability referencing those charge counters as long as Blood Moon is around.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam O'Brien
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Even Cleverer Overtext
badge
Every time someone activates this overtext, it takes a year off my life. Hover often please!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That must have been one of the rules they changed in the recent "dumbing down of magic" rules changes with M10, along with no more mana burn.

Those CoBs used to deal one damage under a blood moon, by golly!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McEvoy
Canada
Mountain
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
dbuel wrote:
It should be noted, if we're going to be complete, that if a given nonbasic land says "This land enters the battlefield tapped," or "This land enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it," it still will, even with Blood Moon out. And even though Blood Moon then removes this ability!


But triggered effects/sacrifices don't? Say, Kjeldoran Outpost, or the aforementioned Glacial Chasm.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric O. LEBIGOT
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dbuel wrote:
Quote:
305.7. If an effect changes a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.
Comprehensive rules quotes speak to my heart! This is both precise and definitive. Love it!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Dickinson
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
3dicebombers wrote:
That must have been one of the rules they changed in the recent "dumbing down of magic" rules changes with M10, along with no more mana burn.

Those CoBs used to deal one damage under a blood moon, by golly!


Pretty sure it was like that before the M10 rules as well, for at least a few years.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Short
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dbuel wrote:
It should be noted, if we're going to be complete, that if a given nonbasic land says "This land enters the battlefield tapped," or "This land enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it," it still will, even with Blood Moon out. And even though Blood Moon then removes this ability!

This is because abilities on the lands that modify how those lands themselves enter the battlefield are checked before checking whether Blood Moon (or anything else) removes those same abilities.

So a Vivid Grove, for example, will enter the battlefield tapped, and will have two charge counters on it; but it will be a (nonbasic) Mountain, will tap for red mana, won't tap for green mana, and won't have any ability referencing those charge counters as long as Blood Moon is around.
"As this enters the battlefield" abilities will still work because they have to happen before the land actually enters play. Blood Moon doesn't affect them until they are already in play, although Blood Moon affects them immediately when they enter the Battlefield so there is never a time when they are both on the battlefield and not a mountain. Thus, "When this enters the battlefield" abilities do not trigger, since they by definition must wait until the land is on the battlefield, and it doesn't have the ability any more by that time.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Short
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
binary101010 wrote:
3dicebombers wrote:
That must have been one of the rules they changed in the recent "dumbing down of magic" rules changes with M10, along with no more mana burn.

Those CoBs used to deal one damage under a blood moon, by golly!


Pretty sure it was like that before the M10 rules as well, for at least a few years.
I don't remember a time when City of Brass still damaged players under a Blood Moon. So it wasn't any recent rules change that could have modified that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hanlon
United States
Plover
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bsushort wrote:
binary101010 wrote:
3dicebombers wrote:
That must have been one of the rules they changed in the recent "dumbing down of magic" rules changes with M10, along with no more mana burn.

Those CoBs used to deal one damage under a blood moon, by golly!


Pretty sure it was like that before the M10 rules as well, for at least a few years.
I don't remember a time when City of Brass still damaged players under a Blood Moon. So it wasn't any recent rules change that could have modified that.


I remember a time when City of Brass still dealt damage under Blood Moon, it was when I didn't know how Blood Moon worked.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Douglas Buel
United States
Hollywood
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thatmarkguy wrote:
dbuel wrote:
It should be noted, if we're going to be complete, that if a given nonbasic land says "This land enters the battlefield tapped," or "This land enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it," it still will, even with Blood Moon out. And even though Blood Moon then removes this ability!


But triggered effects/sacrifices don't? Say, Kjeldoran Outpost, or the aforementioned Glacial Chasm.


Kjeldoran Outpost has errata. Its Oracle text reads:

Quote:
If Kjeldoran Outpost would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Plains instead. If you do, put Kjeldoran Outpost onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.


Blood Moon won't stop this ability from doing what it does. The Outpost isn't even on the battlefield yet when this happens.

But for Glacial Chasm, that's correct -- Glacial Chasm won't have the ability that makes you sacrifice a land when it comes into play.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.