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Hearts and Minds: Vietnam 1965-1975» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question About Pacification/Political Control Change rss

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Juan Valle
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Hi Folks,

Sorry for being a little pest, but another question from our 3 turns session the other day came through, and forgot about it on my previous post.

During Pacification step, the Blue player tries to place a blue flag on an enemy free and 'red flag free' SVN province by rolling a die which should be equal or more to the # of Allied units there.

My question is simple: the rules state that US and/or IF units must be present for pacification, so a stack of US/IF units AND ARVN units can try the Pacification as well? In my only session we assumed that yes it can, but a stack of only ARVN does not. Also, we considered ROK(Korean forces) as IF for this purpose.

The Political Control Change is pretty much crystal clear, but we understand that except for ARVN units, any Allied(US/IF/ROK) unit trying to remove a red flag must roll 1 die, success depending the # of units in the province. Same for NVA units trying to place a red flag(VC and ARVN add or remove the red flag automatically).

Not any hurry but your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jumval





 
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Michael
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I'm pretty sure that it is in the rules that the ROK unit doesn't qualify as a unit that can initiate a pacification attempt. But so long as you have an US or IF unit, you can roll and need a result equal or less than the total number of infantry units in the space. So I think you played it correctly except for the ROK part.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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For pacification, you roll less than or equal to the number of Allied units in the province, which includes everybody including ARVN. There must be at least one US infantry unit present or the IF infantry unit must be present. ROK infantry does not qualify as IF.

For simple control change, roll less than or equal to the number of Allied units in the province, but you only need to do it if there are no ARVN or VC units present. Any ARVN/VC present make the change automatic.
 
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Mark Buetow
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WHOOPS! surpriseblush

I missed that at least 1 US/IF unit must be in the stack.

Can't wait to play it correctly on Saturday.
 
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Tim Korchnoi
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shilinski wrote:
For pacification, you roll less than or equal to the number of Allied units in the province, which includes everybody including ARVN. There must be at least one US infantry unit present or the IF infantry unit must be present. ROK infantry does not qualify as IF.

For simple control change, roll less than or equal to the number of Allied units in the province, but you only need to do it if there are no ARVN or VC units present. Any ARVN/VC present make the change automatic.


Just one to make sure of one thing regarding this post.
So, once Vietnamization is complete and all US units are gone, there can be no pacification from that point onward, correct? And if so, then how does one keep the government of RVN stable if the NVA takes away all your pacification spots?
We have been playing it this way and it again illustrates why I have concerns about the pacification rules.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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catosulla wrote:

Just one to make sure of one thing regarding this post.
So, once Vietnamization is complete and all US units are gone, there can be no pacification from that point onward, correct? And if so, then how does one keep the government of RVN stable if the NVA takes away all your pacification spots?
We have been playing it this way and it again illustrates why I have concerns about the pacification rules.


Correct. Once all US and IF leave, there is no more pacification. You can keep the ones you have though. (You don't need US/IF to maintain pacification, just to create it.) So how do you keep the government stable? You pay SRPs on top of any pacified provinces you can hold. When everyone but ARVN leave (late in the war), the south goes on the defensive, and there is more opportunity to save RPs because the South won't be running operations that much.
 
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Juan Valle
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Hi Folks!!

Once again, thanks for answering my questions.

Everything is clear now.

Jumval
 
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Mark Buetow
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And, Tim: Well, the South WAS overrun in the end... soblue

H&M is one of those games that gives you a lot of flexibility while still retaining the actual historical framework within which to work. It sounds possible that if you play it out to 1975, the South could still win, but what does this represent? Perhaps something like Korea ended up with: rather than overrunning the South, an uneasy truce for the next 40+ years. But that would be a hard won result.

I think this is reflected very well in the "You don't really get any Hawks but you've got to try to get as few Doves as possible" way the track goes.
 
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Tim Korchnoi
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Malacandra wrote:
And, Tim: Well, the South WAS overrun in the end... soblue

H&M is one of those games that gives you a lot of flexibility while still retaining the actual historical framework within which to work. It sounds possible that if you play it out to 1975, the South could still win, but what does this represent? Perhaps something like Korea ended up with: rather than overrunning the South, an uneasy truce for the next 40+ years. But that would be a hard won result.

I think this is reflected very well in the "You don't really get any Hawks but you've got to try to get as few Doves as possible" way the track goes.


True, the south was overrun in the end, but it is always interesting to me how to took the NVA another two plus years to accomplish that. Does make you wonder a bit what impact there would've been on the situation if we had followed through on giving air and material support to RVN rather than congress cutting off those funds.
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John Poniske
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And speaking of pacification...

I wanted you to know that having finally received my copy of HAM, I introduced a friend to it today and had a blast. He was the red player and kept me to a 1 point victory in '65. He focused on politics and won '66 himself with one point to the good. Following a winning strategy he beat me in '67 by four points. In 1968 the year I was dreading, he went on the offensive, but luckily for me,neglected Tet. This allowed me to focus on pacification while he invaded Zone four and closed in on Saigon. It was his mistake, as I swept to victory with a six point lead. Tense, really tense, and fast. My friend was just introduced to it today and we were still able to play through four years in three and a half hours. I learned to HATE the VC all over again. A very satisfying afternoon. :ooh:
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Kyle E
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Had a question about PC change/pacification as well. When ARVN/US/IF units succeed in a PC change/pacification on a Red controlled SVN province, do you flip the control marker (red flag) over or do you remove it. We played that the control marker is removed, then place friendly one by spending a RP.
 
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Tim Korchnoi
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Kyle,
ARVN/US/IF forces remove the flag for a PC change first. Pacification is a distinct action that can be done afterward. So you cannot remove a red flag and instantly place a blue one to show pacification. If there is no red flag, then the province is controlled by the RVN but not pacified. Only a province with a blue flag counts as pacified and thus counts for the RVN stability assessed during the interphase.

So how you played it was fine except remember that you must roll a die and get less than or equal to the number of units in the province to place a pacification marker. Pacification cannot be placed just by the spending of an RP.
V/R,
Tim
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Mark Buetow
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And also remember to pacify, unlike change control, you need to have at least one US or IF unit present.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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And to add further, Red controls a province if there is a red flag there, and Blue controls if there is no red flag there. It does not matter if enemy or friendly units are present. This means that all SVN provinces are controlled by someone at all times. A PC change action (for 1 RP) either removes the red flag (Allies) or places one (NVN).

The blue flag does not indicate control. It means pacified. As it turns out, pacified province are Allied-controlled, but that's just a secondary effect. Perhaps it would have been clearer if the blue flags had not been printed on the back side of the red flags.

An example. Pleiku has a red flag and a some NVA units. It is Red-controlled. Blue enters Pleiku with a stack, attacks the NVA, and eliminates all of them. Only the red flag remains. Blue spends 1 RP to do a PC change (automatic for ARVN and a die roll otherwise). If successful, the red flag is removed. Pleiku is now Allied-controlled. Blue might then choose to pacify Pleiku if he has a US or IF infantry unit present. He spends 1 RP and rolls for pacification. If successful, he puts a blue flag in Pleiku. He must now garrison Pleiku. (It does not have to be with US or IF units). If he leaves Pleiku vacant for an instant, the blue flag is removed and it reverts to being simply an Allied-controlled province.

Later a Red stack enters pacified Pleiku. The stack attacks the Blue units there. If all Blue units retreat or are eliminated, the blue flag is removed automatically and immediately at no cost. Note that flagless Pleiku is still Allied-controlled until Red does a PC changes and puts a red flag there.
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