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Subject: User Content, How far is too far? rss

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True Blue Jon
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Let me preface this so the admins don't have to infer intent: This isn't a complaint, it is a discussion about BGG.

The following is email correspondence I recently received. Post your comments and thoughts. I am under no illusions that my thoughts are popular. For the record I don't necessarily disagree but I feel it should be up to me to make the decision on the longevity of my posts.

I'll add in chronological order:

Octavian wrote:
DeltaAlphaBravo,

From following the forums I've noted multiple instances recently where you've posted something and subsequently deleted the post after you've received a response. Can I ask what the intent is behind doing this? It's rather disruptive to the discussions.

Thanks!

-MMM

DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
I decided I didn't want contributions history, been doing it for months. I leave them up for a while. Some 24 hours, some 2 hours.

Octavian wrote:
Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, that is rather disruptive to the discussions. I need to ask that you stop deleting things in this way as it has already caused some complaints. The only alternative to your volunteering to stop is for us to disable your post deleting capabilities, but I don't want to have to go there if it can be avoided.

Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

-MMM

DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. My content is my own? I believe this is your policy. You deleted all of Michael Barnes' posts at his behest.

I would like to offer a counter complaint that other people complaining is disruptive. Go chastise them.


Octavian wrote:
Your content is your own, however disrupting the forums is a violation of our posting rules. I suppose we could suspend your posting privileges instead, but I'd prefer to avoid suspending anything if possible.

If you don't want your content on the site then that is understandable, but I would have to ask that you not post it in the first place if that is the case.

-MMM

DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
I understand your point but the "disturbing forums" is an all encompassing bandaid you use. Technically there isn't a single action a user can take that you couldn't label disruptive. Kinda like "disturbing the peace" or "interfering with official police business", just generics intend for good but often misused.[\q]

Octavian wrote:
I understand your point, but in this case there have been multiple instances of people contacting me privately or posting publicly about their confusion when someone is responding to something that is no longer there. This leads to the threads running off the original topic, so in this case I feel that "disruptive" is quite descriptive of the effect.

Anyways, our site policy is to issue warnings first and then suspensions of increasing length for subsequent violations. I feel you have been warned at this point about the inappropriateness of these actions.

Let me know if you have further questions or concerns.


-MMM


Crazy to me!

Your thoughts?


That we have to quote everything you post now.
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Either you didn't read it or didn't understand the text. For clarification, I am no longer allowed to do this. Your comment was purely for thumbs.


Is there a specific reason you don't want it to stay on? It is an interesting point you raise in that it really is your content; however, Octavian's counterpoint makes sense too. What is the point of having a forum if nobody knows what the hell is going on?
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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:

Your thoughts?


Honestly?

I think BGG's response to this is a bit draconian (though as an aside I give Octavian a big thumbsup in general), and unnecessary. One of the best parts about BGG is that the mods are relatively light-handed, and the community generally pressures people to behave well on its own. From this post and your earlier post on RSP, I also don't think you're trying to be disruptive.

That said, I don't think it's terribly considerate to other users, particularly those who have taken time to respond to your own comments. BGG as a community suffers when those who weren't around to see your post in its 2-24 hour window want to participate, and that, I think, is a bad thing.

If pressed, I'd come down on your side of the argument, and think you should ideally have ownership of your posts, but would also ask you to consider that other people may want to read what's already been written and that deleting your own posts on a regular basis may disrupt their enjoyment of the site. In short, I don't think you're "wrong," and from your earlier RSP post I understand your position, but I also feel you could be more conscientious.

Best.

ETA, re: thumbing quozl, and why I did so: That's the honest impression I get, and I wasn't just thumbing him arbitrarily as a quip. Without the quotes, it's just hard to follow a discussion. For what it's worth, your follow-up also indicates that they did go through with blocking your deletion abilities, and I disagree with that position.
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Yeah, I can't really fault Octavian's logic here. Deleting posts, especially if it's stuff like rules questions, just reduces the usefulness and coherence of the site.
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Daniel Barrett
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It sounds like you would rather have your comments temporary as in a chat room not a forum.

As far as I know the intent of internet forum posts are intended to stay in place for the typical duration of the forum lifespan.

I've seen some forums that delete all posts after 6 months, BGG forums appear the be intended for the lifespan of the website, permanent.

I have to ask why post in a forum at all if you want to delete your posts rather quickly?

You might find a boardgame related chat room that suites your posting style better.
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There's a BGG chat room here, for ephemeral content:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geekchat2.php
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If you don't want anything you post to stay on for more than a day then...I'd prefer you not post at all.
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Helljin wrote:
I have to ask why post in a forum at all if you want to delete your posts rather quickly?


I agree, to the point of wondering why "our posts are our own." Once out there in cyberspace I don't think we should "own" them. Other people are relying on what is on this site when they quote it, refer to it, or just remember where it is to go back and read later.

Consider the prominent examples of people who don't want to leave a public record of their remarks or writings: Nixon's Watergate tapes, the CIA's rendition flight plans, Madoff's banking records. I'd prefer that that not be the public image conveyed by BGG.

As those examples show, in the "real" world you can't say or write something consequential and then eliminate the consequences by "taking it back." So far as I know BGG is not a game with mulligans or do overs.
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The Steak Fairy
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Ha, how dare they handle you with kid gloves in this manner. If you were some big oafish and annoying brute (like moi) you'd have been suspended twelve times since you began this thread.
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Brian Morris
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What I don't understand is the idea of not wanting a "contributions history". If you don't want a contributions history then the simple answer is don't post. Makes more sense than playing musical chairs with your postings.
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Bartosz Trzaskowski

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I've been the admin of a relatively small message-board (not on boardgames) for a long time now (>10 years). From my experience, there are always some users (small percentage) that want to explore admins patience and come to the verge of breaking the rules (both written and unwritten). I've noticed that they love to keep mailing admins about their issues and whenever they don't like my responses, they immediately go public with them.

My answer is always the same: discuss on the board like you would discuss in real life. Would you offend someone while talking face to face? Would you mock someone? Could you take your words back after saying them? It's as simple as that: treat posting on message board as a conversation/discussion in real life.

Apparently I'm less patient than bgg admins whenever I feel someone is disturbing the discussion by any of these means. For me it's simple; 1st/2nd breach of rules means a warning, after that it's just a goodbye.
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My take on it....

You're being selfish. You want answer to your questions, or the ability to comment freely on what others say, but you don't want to let anyone else get the benefit of the whole picture.

If this is the way you intend to continue, it's clear that you don't have any intention of being part of the community. You just want to leach information (or attention) when it suits you. The "I'm here when I want to be, and not here when I don't want to be" attitude is childish. It's like the gamer who "conveniently" has a prior commitment when it's his turn bring dinner, but always shows up when someone else is buying the pizza.

Now, if you leave, you certainly DO have control over your content. Take it all down, or leave it all up, or delete every third item, as you wish.

Leave or stay... pick one.

Just my 0.02.
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Brian Morris
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Not wanting contributions history and the occasional question or passing thought are not mutually exclusive, at least not when the ability to delete exists.

Don't get stuck on the 'why'. It is almost irrelevant and the reason people tend to ask 'why' is because 'why' is much easier to form an argument for or against than the basic premise. You end up not discussing the root but rather a tangential idea which makes contact with the root. Unimportant in this instance.



Considering that this is all based around this wish not to have a contribution history it is indeed relevant and a completely legitimate question. It is yourself that brought up this idea of not wanting contributions history. This entire thread that you began is based on your wish for this. Throwing that out there and then calling it irrelevant and unimportant makes it much harder to feel any validity for what your point is.

To me this sounds more like your main purpose in this whole thread was to try and embarrass Octavian. Make yourself into the victim of his being heavy handed. I don't see that at all. I see Octavian doing his job in a polite manner dealing with someone whose postings are not following the norm in respect to the forums.
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Bill Gates
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
You deleted all of Michael Barnes' posts at his behest.



By the way, Barnes' posts (geeklists, reviews, etc) are still on BGG.
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Paul Springer
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
There are instances where my deletion has caused a rift in the flow of information within a thread but the complaints stem from users being unable to satiate their curiosity.[/size]



Ah, those quaint little users. Always expecting to read the thing that everyone is responding to. How cute!
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Wrong. My reasoning is not listed in the premise. It is something people have latched onto. Separating the reasoning from the action is perfectly acceptable in this instance.

Octavian did his job well and I have no issue with Octavian. The subject of the discussion has been explicitly stated.

You have chosen to post off topic even when my previous posts were made to keep the topic on course. There is no supporting evidence for your claim and your post is not constructive.


It is hardly off topic to ask a question about something you yourself brought up. You may not want to not answer it for whatever reason but seeing as you brought it up in your original posting it's not possible to say it's off topic.
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You're already free to create an anonymous (to other posters) persona on here. I don't see a strong argument for having all your posts be deleted after a short period of time.

I do think you are abusing a system that is in place to allow EDITING of posts: to correct mistakes, clarify, etc. Rarely, there are instances something is reasonably deleted by the user (emotional response, etc) but the day to day content is what creates the useful material for all of us to search regarding games' discussion.

I think you have abused the deletion function, it was pointed out to you...and now you appear to be pig-headed about it. If you don't feel comfortable leaving a trail of posts from your anonymous online geek-persona, don't. Don't post anything.

I would add that I think allowing users deleting their accounts and all of their past comments is VERY GENEROUS. If it were my website, I'd allow accounts to be deleted, the material would stay and next to the avatar/username would be a tag making it clear that user is not a member any more (so no one expects a response). The fact that Aldie has allowed mass deletions just shows that he is more generous than me.

I think what you're doing is similar to if I decided to flag every post as a violation. Sure, its POSSIBLE to do it, but its also abuse of what the system is intended for. Bottom line though, if the administrators of the site make a request from you, why not comply?
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Paul Springer
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cornjob wrote:
... why not comply?


Because he's an expert at the "I'm not touching you" game.
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So when will you be deleting your posts in this thread?

DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Not wanting contributions history and the occasional question or passing thought are not mutually exclusive, at least not when the ability to delete exists.

Don't get stuck on the 'why'. It is almost irrelevant and the reason people tend to ask 'why' is because 'why' is much easier to form an argument for or against than the basic premise. You end up not discussing the root but rather a tangential idea which makes contact with the root. Unimportant in this instance.

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One last thought. On another site I frequent (non-games related) I am an admin. We have a strict policy about public disclosure of admin discipline or private discussions. Basically, there is a zero tolerance of someone turning around and publicly posting such as you've done here with Octavian's exchange.

You're allowed to be pissed. But you can't turn it into a flame the admin thread. Violating this results in at a minimum a brief suspension...and if there are prior infractions it could be longer/permanent.

It sounds draconian, but it sure keeps the forum clean and on-topic. Behind it all, I happen to be aware of the self-policing that occurs among the admins. But there is no reason that has to be visible, as its just distracting.
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
I appreciate you opinion. There may well be a bit of selfishness on my part, it is valid statement. But that in and of itself is not a violation of rules or usage of the community nor does it have bearing on "Does a user have the right to control the longevity of their post?".


It most certainly does have bearing on the question: "Does a user have the right to be intentionally disruptive to the forums?" That was the reason given by Octavian for his geekmail to you, and it was based on complaints from other users.

An online discussion is like cooperating to build a house of cards. Each person builds on all the cards that were placed before, the same way that each person responds to everything that was said previously in the thread.

Starting to build that house of cards, then saying "well, I'm done here.. thanks. I'll just pull these two cards out of the house and be on my way" is rude, selfish, immature and a long string of other unflattering adjectives.

To put it mildly, you cheated the other players. By joining a discussion, you implicitly state that you intend to participate, even if only for that one post. By pulling out your comments, you're changing the rules to suit yourself, and everyone else be damned.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play a game against someone who did that.

Quote:
Over simplification. That is exactly what every user does.


You can try to rationalize and convince yourself of that, but you're the only one who appears to be hiding by deleting his posts as he goes along.
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A direct answer to your question.

NO.

A poster does not have the right to control how long a post remains on a thread.

You are either a member of the conversation, or you are not.

If you aren't- ie, you wish to have all traces of your presence removed from the boards, feel free to leave, delete your account, and erase your online presence.

However, if you ARE part of the conversation, you do not have the right to disrupt OTHER people trying to follow what is going on. Thus, you cant raise a point, have a bunch of people respond to you, and then delete your comments. Its completely unfair to the other people reading the thread.

You ALWAYS have the option of leaving, and erasing your presence. What you DO NOT have the option of is the ability to EDIT your online presence- for whatever reason.

Either post- and live with it- or not. No one is forcing you to post online. Therefore, what you do post, so long as you decide to remain part of the community, is part OF that community.

Darilian
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
Do you think a user should have control over the longevity of their postings?

No.

DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
...
Crazy to me!

Your thoughts?

The admins are too generous and this was/is just a waste of their time.

I think the correct response to stunts and griefers is quick suspension and/or account deletion.
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DeltaAlphaBravo wrote:
You have changed the question to suit your needs. So no, it has no bearing.


You're ignoring the broader issue to suit your needs. This is NOT just about you deleting your posts as you go along. It's about you looking for support to violate the rules of the site.

Octavian said "disrupting the forums is a violation of our posting rules." Aldie, the man in charge of this whole shebang has publicly backed him up.

If you can't follow the rules, leave the site. Take your content or not, as you choose. But don't try to make yourself out to be a martyr to free speech and intellectual property rights in the process.

Quote:
Misquoted and misread. You stated people think they can come and go as they please and that is a childish attitude.


Actually, no. That's not what I wrote or implied. From the context and the example I gave, it's not even close. To quote you... "Misquoted and misread."

But, I see this is pointless. Not only do you want to change the rules of the game after it's already started, you're a rules lawyer as well.

For the sake of the folks you game with, I hope you treat them better than the way you treat forum members who have to deal with your deleted messages.
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There still is something called netiquette. The internet would be a much nicer place if everybody would just respect this 'network etiquette'...
I for one consider deleting and/or editing your posts showing a lack of respect to other users of this forum and therefore not complying with the netiquette. So no, I don't think users should have anything to say about the longevity of their posts. 'Longevity of information' is actually an inherent part of the internet (especially with all the spiderbots and cache from various search engines) and if you don't want' this, then this is not your medium
.
I think Octavian handled this situation in a friendly and professional manner and applaude him for that!
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