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Subject: Questions for those of you playtesting Washington's War rss

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BJ
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Hey how long are games of Washington's War taking to play? How similar is it to We the People? Do you thing Washington's War will be GMTs entry level CDG or does it compare in complexity to Twilight Struggle?

BJ
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Washington's War is more complex than We the People and Twilight Struggle. It is closer to Wilderness War in this regard.
 
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Jonathan Moody
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I think it is simpler than Twilight Struggle.

Either way, it will be a good entry level CDG involving troops and battles.

Time is a little tough for me to judge having only played via e-mail, but it should play much quicker than Twilight Struggle (a full game at least). People are reporting in the 60-90 minute range once they have the rules down.
 
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Brad Miller
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gittes wrote:
Washington's War is more complex than We the People and Twilight Struggle. It is closer to Wilderness War in this regard.


I'm surprised you say it's more complex than WtP. Not sure how removing the battle cards makes it more complex, though admittedly, I don't know what other changes have been put into WaWa. And more than TS? I would say the whole headline/opponent's events/scoring cards cardplay mechanics of TS would put it way beyond lots of CDGs in terms of complexity, even without rules for the moving or armies/generals/interceptions/battles...
 
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There is supposed to be a Vassal demo in the near future. Check the GMT website. You may be able to get answers directly from the developers and or author.
 
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Joel Toppen
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Quote:
Hey how long are games of Washington's War taking to play? How similar is it to We the People? Do you thing Washington's War will be GMTs entry level CDG or does it compare in complexity to Twilight Struggle?


First game or two may take two hours to play. Experienced players can play in an hour to 90 minutes.

Game complexity is only slightly more complex than We the People. The rules are longer but much of this is because we have incorporated the many clarifications from We the People into the body of rules for Washington's War.

I'll be running a demo of the game soon. In fact I'll probably make an announcement some time today in this regard.

-Joel
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Quote:
I'm surprised you say it's more complex than WtP. Not sure how removing the battle cards makes it more complex, though admittedly, I don't know what other changes have been put into WaWa. And more than TS? I would say the whole headline/opponent's events/scoring cards cardplay mechanics of TS would put it way beyond lots of CDGs in terms of complexity, even without rules for the moving or armies/generals/interceptions/battles...


In Washington's War you have a whole slew of minor rules: British regulars, a French diplomacy track, rules for avoiding combat, numerous battle factors. I just found it to be slightly more involved than Twilight Struggle. This does not mean it is complex, but I would use Twilight Struggle as an introduction to CDGs before I'd use Washington's War. Either will work.

Quote:
Time is a little tough for me to judge having only played via e-mail, but it should play much quicker than Twilight Struggle (a full game at least). People are reporting in the 60-90 minute range once they have the rules down.


All of my games have hovered at 120 minutes. I think that is because of my opponents, but I don't see a 60 minute game happening unless the war ends quickly and I'm playing with a veteran. The game does have the possibility of ending quickly, but so does Twilight Struggle.
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James Megee
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joel_m_toppen wrote:
Quote:
Hey how long are games of Washington's War taking to play? How similar is it to We the People? Do you thing Washington's War will be GMTs entry level CDG or does it compare in complexity to Twilight Struggle?


I'll be running a demo of the game soon. In fact I'll probably make an announcement some time today in this regard.

-Joel


I sat in on one of the WW demos and it was very interesting. I recommend sitting in and watching to anyone thinking of buying this game.

Jim
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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gittes wrote:
In Washington's War you have a whole slew of minor rules: British regulars, a French diplomacy track, rules for avoiding combat, numerous battle factors.

British regulars and avoiding combat are rules in WtP as well, so unless they are more elaborate they should not add much to the complexity.
 
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Joel Toppen
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Quote:
British regulars and avoiding combat are rules in WtP as well, so unless they are more elaborate they should not add much to the complexity.


These rules are almost exactly the same as in WtP. No added rules weight in this direction.

-Joel
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Quote:
British regulars and avoiding combat are rules in WtP as well, so unless they are more elaborate they should not add much to the complexity.


If you'll note, my entire reply was in comparison to Twilight Struggle and not We the People.
 
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Joel Toppen
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Comparing the complexity of Washington's War with Twilight Struggle is not necessarily a straight-forward exercise. For example:

TS has a shorter (in page length and word count) rulebook but gameplay is just about as complex as WWR. IMO, the card interaction of TS is MUCH more complex than that of WWR.

Interestingly enough, both TS and WWR are primarily political conflicts.
 
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Quote:
Comparing the complexity of Washington's War with Twilight Struggle is not necessarily a straight-forward exercise. For example:

TS has a shorter (in page length and word count) rulebook but gameplay is just about as complex as WWR. IMO, the card interaction of TS is MUCH more complex than that of WWR.

Interestingly enough, both TS and WWR are primarily political conflicts.


Not at all straight forward, but like you said both are very political and being at nearly the same complexity, I think it is worth it to compare them. I agree the card interaction is more complex in TS, but there are few if any rules that are important only every turn or so. Trying to remember rules like those are what ups the complexity for me. Washington's War does not have many of these, but TS has none at all. I think that is just one reason why TS has been a crossover hit.
 
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Mark Herman
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bjhenderson wrote:
Hey how long are games of Washington's War taking to play? How similar is it to We the People? Do you thing Washington's War will be GMTs entry level CDG or does it compare in complexity to Twilight Struggle?

BJ


Playing time for WWR...

Back in January I brought a copy of Washington's War up to NYC and the Chitkickers played three games. Some of the players had played WTP, but some had not or had not in a very long time. The first game was timed and it took exactly 87 minutes. Overall we played the three games in 5 hours.

As far as complexity goes WWR has stayed very close to the complexity of WTP. It has some new wrinkles, but I do not think that adds so much complexity as depth of play. I cannot think of more than one or two other CDGs that are less complex and none that are quicker to play through.

Mark
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Sam Butler
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I've played through (on solo mode, playing both sides) the Vassal version of Washington's War, exploring the rules and with the rulebook open and consulted before making every play of the strategy cards, and even then with some getting used to the Vassal interface and obsessing over the rules to make sure I was getting them right, I played through the first two turns in 45 minutes. In real life, it would take less time -- no interface quirks and not as much rules obsession. My 3rd turn (not included in that 45-minute timeframe), where I didn't obsess over rules constantly, took about 10 minutes total for both sides, with a brief rules consult as one question arose. I believe this 10-minute number per turn is far more typical for what a tabletop play would be with a newbie like me.

The game lasts a total of 5-9 turns, and you won't know until the end of the game exactly how many turns. The average game would be 7 turns long.

9 turns * 10 minutes/turn = 90 minutes of play time.

With familiarity, I will believe this goes down even more. Certainly with North-War Ends in 1779, the play time drops a lot, and the average game would be ~70 minutes of play time with North-War Ends in 1881.

Even if these estimates are low for your particular gaming partner, I don't see how the game could last more than 2 hours unless someone really suffers from analysis paralysis...but then it is hardly something you can blame on the game.
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BJ
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Thank you all for the feedback. I am definitely interested in Washington's War. A shorter CDG will get alot of play on my gametable.
 
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