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Subject: News: US troops close Taliban escape route before attack rss

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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100211/D9DQ48800.html

It would be cool to play this currently unfolding battle as an ultra-contemporary wargame. Anyone know an app to "generate a wargame on the fly"? ;-)
 
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Philip Thomas
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Why is this news? Shouldn't it be routine procedure?
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Why is this news? Shouldn't it be CLASSIFIED until the Marines have completed their heroic effort?
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If we know its their escape route isnt there a good possibility that its NOT their escape route?
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Why is this news? Shouldn't it be routine procedure?

Well, I'm referring to the entire battle described in the news article.
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tesuji wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
Why is this news? Shouldn't it be routine procedure?

Well, I'm referring to the entire battle described in the news article.


yes back on topic, any games to simulate/play something like this?
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Why is this news? Shouldn't it be routine procedure?


You'd think, but it apparently wasn't back in 2002 at Tora Bora, when no one bothered to do this (i.e. close off the escape route) prior to the attack, allowing Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora
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tesuji wrote:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100211/D9DQ48800.html

It would be cool to play this currently unfolding battle as an ultra-contemporary wargame. Anyone know an app to "generate a wargame on the fly"? ;-)


I don't know about such an "app", but I do recall that Austin Bay and Jim Dunnigan designed Arabian Nightmare: The Kuwait War, a game about Operation Desert Storm, while the build up to the operation was ongoing. The game itself was interesting, though in the end it didn't end up being an entirely valid model of what actually transpired, but the process by which Bay and Dunnigan designed a game on a contemporary event as that event unfolded was fascinating.

Taking a que from Bay and Dunnigan, maybe someone could work something up for this, or perhaps adapt an existing game with a scenario for this impending battle. I'm not sure what games are out there right now that model modern tactical scale combat - is there a modern "Combat Commander" or "Squad Leader" type game? Has ASL been adapted for modern warfare?
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It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.

I suspect it would be easy to make a game on the fly as it progresses but it would be the news version which I suspect is far from reality (I hope so anyway)
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Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.



Well its not exactly new, in 1870 during the Franco-Prussian war it was not uncommon for the opposing generals to learn about their opponents' plans, and indeed actual maneuvres, from the Times . Indeed some unkind rumours had it that French generals learnt about their own plans from the Times, or at least the plans of their felllow French generals...
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tesuji wrote:
It would be cool to play this currently unfolding battle as an ultra-contemporary wargame. Anyone know an app to "generate a wargame on the fly"? ;-)


You can make a wargame about anything at anytime, but it may not simulate the actual battle. As someone else posted, previous attempts to simulate ongoing conflicts are difficult because critical knowledge is not available until long after the conflict is completed. Creating victory conditions is hard enough; reasonably simulating the combat and its effects is probably in the 'too hard' category because of insufficient information. This is particularly so in the Information Age where the tactical is also strategic.

 
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Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.

I suspect it would be easy to make a game on the fly as it progresses but it would be the news version which I suspect is far from reality (I hope so anyway)


I think you are right and "funny" ha-ha applies when the military uses the media to confuse an enemy. Unfortunately, "unnamed sources" in the past have gotten people killed. Nauseatingly, they don't seem to care. Look at some of the stupidity from the early coverage of the Gulf War for examples! My hardline view is that it is murderous, treasonous or both if someone dies becasue of an unoffical leak.

Here's hoping the Marines do in fact cut these creeps off, official, unofficial or doctored leak aside...
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Warpiglet wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.

I suspect it would be easy to make a game on the fly as it progresses but it would be the news version which I suspect is far from reality (I hope so anyway)


I think you are right and "funny" ha-ha applies when the military uses the media to confuse an enemy. Unfortunately, "unnamed sources" in the past have gotten people killed. Nauseatingly, they don't seem to care. Look at some of the stupidity from the early coverage of the Gulf War for examples! My hardline view is that it is murderous, treasonous or both if someone dies becasue of an unoffical leak.

Here's hoping the Marines do in fact cut these creeps off, official, unofficial or doctored leak aside...


If you seriously believe the reports are not given out by those in charge maybe you should write to someone about it as that's a serious accusation and completely unfounded. Media control, lies and distraction has been a feature of wars for thousands of years and its a key part in all wars, always has been. The media prints what the forces want them to and if they did not they would be in court in short order and absent from any press releases, at least in the UK.

Also the Taliban know they are being attacked, they can see the forces and we WANT them to know it too. Obviously. They will also know we want them to know. It's all a big dangerous game of bluff and double bluff.

Don't confuse misjudging the information given (standard incompetence which has lost lives) with deliberately giving out information the media have been told to withhold.

The real danger is from bloggers with mobile text phones who have no such controls. This is one of the fear of blogging in fact. Standard reporters have to sign the official secrets act or equivalent and their postings are monitored. Any infraction and they are kicked out of the country.

Really if anyone believes most of what is written in newspapers about these sorts of events without grasping they are manipulated then fine, I don't.

The 'funny' bit to me is people fall for the same manipulation that the enemy does. Its funny to me that papers print an 'exclusive' pretending its top secret when clearly it's not. It shows the papers expectations of the intelligence or their readers. And that's why I said any game would be the media version, not reality. To me that's funny.
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.



Well its not exactly new, in 1870 during the Franco-Prussian war it was not uncommon for the opposing generals to learn about their opponents' plans, and indeed actual maneuvres, from the Times . Indeed some unkind rumours had it that French generals learnt about their own plans from the Times, or at least the plans of their felllow French generals...


Yes, it was the same in the Spanish Peninsular war where the French and British got almost no intel on what the hell was happening in the rest of Europe when the whole of Europe new.
 
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Halfinger wrote:
Warpiglet wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.

I suspect it would be easy to make a game on the fly as it progresses but it would be the news version which I suspect is far from reality (I hope so anyway)


I think you are right and "funny" ha-ha applies when the military uses the media to confuse an enemy. Unfortunately, "unnamed sources" in the past have gotten people killed. Nauseatingly, they don't seem to care. Look at some of the stupidity from the early coverage of the Gulf War for examples! My hardline view is that it is murderous, treasonous or both if someone dies becasue of an unoffical leak.

Here's hoping the Marines do in fact cut these creeps off, official, unofficial or doctored leak aside...


If you seriously believe the reports are not given out by those in charge maybe you should write to someone about it as that's a serious accusation and completely unfounded. Media control, lies and distraction has been a feature of wars for thousands of years and its a key part in all wars, always has been. The media prints what the forces want them to and if they did not they would be in court in short order and absent from any press releases, at least in the UK.

Also the Taliban know they are being attacked, they can see the forces and we WANT them to know it too. Obviously. They will also know we want them to know. It's all a big dangerous game of bluff and double bluff.

Don't confuse misjudging the information given (standard incompetence which has lost lives) with deliberately giving out information the media have been told to withhold.

The real danger is from bloggers with mobile text phones who have no such controls. This is one of the fear of blogging in fact. Standard reporters have to sign the official secrets act or equivalent and their postings are monitored. Any infraction and they are kicked out of the country.

Really if anyone believes most of what is written in newspapers about these sorts of events without grasping they are manipulated then fine, I don't.

The 'funny' bit to me is people fall for the same manipulation that the enemy does. Its funny to me that papers print an 'exclusive' pretending its top secret when clearly it's not. It shows the papers expectations of the intelligence or their readers. And that's why I said any game would be the media version, not reality. To me that's funny.


I will try to be optimistic and assume all "leaks" are intentional then. But then this would imply that you and a select group are too smart to fall for it, but the enemy isn't. If everyone knows that all of this is nonsense, why would the military use this as a tactic?

 
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Warpiglet wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
Warpiglet wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
It's quite funny how the news runs wars these days although this information is deliberately leaked and there are probably plenty of red herrings and diversion 'facts'. The SAS are heavily involved and this 'top secret' information is known by anyone who reads a British newspaper.

I suspect it would be easy to make a game on the fly as it progresses but it would be the news version which I suspect is far from reality (I hope so anyway)


I think you are right and "funny" ha-ha applies when the military uses the media to confuse an enemy. Unfortunately, "unnamed sources" in the past have gotten people killed. Nauseatingly, they don't seem to care. Look at some of the stupidity from the early coverage of the Gulf War for examples! My hardline view is that it is murderous, treasonous or both if someone dies becasue of an unoffical leak.

Here's hoping the Marines do in fact cut these creeps off, official, unofficial or doctored leak aside...


If you seriously believe the reports are not given out by those in charge maybe you should write to someone about it as that's a serious accusation and completely unfounded. Media control, lies and distraction has been a feature of wars for thousands of years and its a key part in all wars, always has been. The media prints what the forces want them to and if they did not they would be in court in short order and absent from any press releases, at least in the UK.

Also the Taliban know they are being attacked, they can see the forces and we WANT them to know it too. Obviously. They will also know we want them to know. It's all a big dangerous game of bluff and double bluff.

Don't confuse misjudging the information given (standard incompetence which has lost lives) with deliberately giving out information the media have been told to withhold.

The real danger is from bloggers with mobile text phones who have no such controls. This is one of the fear of blogging in fact. Standard reporters have to sign the official secrets act or equivalent and their postings are monitored. Any infraction and they are kicked out of the country.

Really if anyone believes most of what is written in newspapers about these sorts of events without grasping they are manipulated then fine, I don't.

The 'funny' bit to me is people fall for the same manipulation that the enemy does. Its funny to me that papers print an 'exclusive' pretending its top secret when clearly it's not. It shows the papers expectations of the intelligence or their readers. And that's why I said any game would be the media version, not reality. To me that's funny.


I will try to be optimistic and assume all "leaks" are intentional then. But then this would imply that you and a select group are too smart to fall for it, but the enemy isn't. If everyone knows that all of this is nonsense, why would the military use this as a tactic?



Its all part of information warfare. This has won battles on its own, it's that powerful.

Several reasons its used and it may be true or false:

1. It may actually be true (probably is) and they want to exploit any splits in the enemy and moral. They may be able to force a retreat or partial surrender.

2. It may be true but misses a lot of crucial detail (extremely likely) and what is said has no real military benefit or is already known by the enemy (they can't miss an army surrounding them)

3. It covers their true intentions. Many battles have been won this way for thousands of years. The enemy do not know if they are bluffing. WW2 is packed with this sort of bluff.

4. It is simply reporting what they know the enemy already knows, bolstering the enemies belief they know it all when they don't.

5. They may be giving important information or a notice of support to friendly factions within the enemy (Taliban are very mixed in their loyalty) as well as tipping them off so they are prepared.

6. They want to be seen to be giving out information to please the people back home (this is VERY important) and bolster interest and support in the war. There is also strong element of 'we should know at all cost' people in all Western countries and this shuts them up to an extent.

7. Its wastes the time of the Taliban who have to decide what to do and on information that may be faulty.

8. A combination of the above and many others reasons I can't think of.



I think it was Winston Churchill that said the first victim of war is the truth. Now I totally agree that armies can mess up, give out information they did not mean too and bloggers or freelance reporters are dangerous. But where they are now no one will get close without Army support so only official reporters, vetted, credited and vetted again will get a look in.

The 'funny' was at the irony as I was commenting on an 'exclusive' from a top selling paper in the UK. Of course it was given to them deliberately. They are a respectable paper and would never print anything unauthorised.

I completely understand your point of view but, except for negligence or a loose cannon, what you described should not happen. At least I hope not, I totally agree with you there.

EDIT: An example of the top of my head is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pocket_battleship_Admira... (it's in the 'final docking' section)

A British official 'accidentally' mentioned in a meeting of another countries representative that the British had a lot of warships in the area when in fact they had almost none. That country was not at war but was friendly to Germany. So they told them, as planned. Result, one lost Battleship that was scuttled rather than fight this imaginary enemy. History is peppered with this and the best Generals did this sort of thing as a matter of course.

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You learn something everyday...



As to the OP...for me personally, I think it is too soon to model this conflict for the sake of those involved but I know there will be very split opinion on this as well
 
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Warpiglet wrote:
You learn something everyday...:)



As to the OP...for me personally, I think it is too soon to model this conflict for the sake of those involved but I know there will be very split opinion on this as well


Yes I agree with that. I think it's a bit tasteless and really there are many other conflicts to game. Having said that I can see why it would be a very interesting thing to do as it would be designing the game as the battle unfolded which would be unique. So I can see both sides too. I wonder how the forces are doing it and what software/system they are using? They must have some sort of software to analyse and monitor all this.

Also Warpiglet last night I saw Newsnight on BBC1 and a member of the forces was asked why information was being released, and the answers given were included in the list I gave. So at least we know the information was legitimate and hopefully won't threaten lives.
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Halfinger wrote:
I wonder how the forces are doing it and what software/system they are using? They must have some sort of software to analyse and monitor all this.


Here's a few links that may help answer your questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Warrior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Integrated_Soldier_Techn...

http://www.history.com/video.do?name=militaryhistory&bcpid=1...

http://www.history.com/video.do?name=modernmarvels&bcpid=176...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_Combat_Team

In the Brigade Combat Team article there is a organizational table for a Stryker brigade.
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Thank's for that
 
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