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Subject: Crane, Speculator, Archive, Cooperage, Herald, Carpenter, Healer, and Accountant cards rss

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T. Rosen
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Crane: "When activating a building, you pay 1 AC less."
Speculator: "You pay 1 AC less when taking possession of a city quarter."

Do these cards apply at most once per turn like most other cards or do they apply all the time? I'm guessing it's the former, but would just like confirmation.

The reason I think it is the former is because of the wording on cards like Archive and Cooperage.

Archive: "You pay 1 AC less when activating each office card."
Cooperage: "You score 1 PP more for each ware tile which you deliver."

I am guessing that the word "each" on Archive and Cooperage makes those effects continuous, whereas the word "a" on Crane before "building" and the word "a" on Speculator before "city quarter" make those cards apply to a single building and a single city quarter per turn respectively.

Is that the general consensus? Thanks!
 
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T. Rosen
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Re: Crane and Speculator cards
Another wrinkle are cards like Herald and Carpenter.

Herald: "You can pay 3 GC instead of the required AC whenever you take possession of a city quarter."
Carpenter: "You take 1 GC whenever you take possession of a city quarter."

How does the word "whenever" figure into the equation alongside words above like "a" and "each." I don't want to be a rules lawyer, but I'm having trouble figuring out how various cards in this game were meant to work.

I understand the general idea that all of the cards in the game can be used once per turn. But when the cards use words like "each" (in the case of Archive and Cooperage) and "whenever" (in the case of Herald and Carpenter), it makes me think they may be exceptions to that general rule. Or maybe they're not and just once per turn abilities... thoughts?
 
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T. Rosen
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Re: Crane, Speculator, Archive, Cooperage, Herald, and Carpenter cards
Let's throw the Healer and Accountant into the mix so maybe I can get these all cleared up in one go.

Healer: "When you activate a person, you return 1 less AC."
Accountant: "You take 1 GC, every time you activate an office card."

I assume the Healer works like the Crane and Speculator, but I have no idea how those work, so am not sure how the Healer works.

The Accountant is interesting because it takes the clarity of "each" on Archive and Cooperage to the next level by including the words "every time," but that makes me doubt the effects of the other cards more since they don't include the phrase "every time," which is the most explicit way of conveying that the card can trigger multiple times per turn.
 
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Mik Svellov
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Crane: The original German card says 'each activation' so it works every time.
Same goes for Speculator

In fact, all the cards you have listed works every time you want them to.
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T. Rosen
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Great Dane wrote:
Crane: The original German card says 'each activation


Well that just throws a wrench in my plans. I guess focusing in on words like "a," "each," and "whenever" doesn't work if the translation is not consistent.

So you think that the Crane makes all of your buildings 1 cube cheaper? Maybe all of the cards I mention here have persistent affects that work throughout your turn not just once per turn? It's confusing because there are plenty of cards that allow you to exchange X for Y, which I believe are meant to be a single exchange of X for Y, and not as many exchanges as you want, but then there are these cards that could go either way and I'm not sure how to interpret them.
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Mik Svellov
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The Crane works in the same way as the Healer: ie. you pay 1 cube less for every card activated.

PS. Hope the US edition still has Mik's Tavern - as that is me
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Mik Svellov
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Thommy8 wrote:
It's confusing because there are plenty of cards that allow you to exchange X for Y, which I believe are meant to be a single exchange of X for Y, and not as many exchanges as you want, but then there are these cards that could go either way and I'm not sure how to interpret them.

Yes. A friend of mine have suggested that the cards ought to have tiny icons to signify repeatable or single use.
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Alan Goodrich
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Thommy8 wrote:
Well that just throws a wrench in my plans. I guess focusing in on words like "a," "each," and "whenever" doesn't work if the translation is not consistent.

So you think that the Crane makes all of your buildings 1 cube cheaper? Maybe all of the cards I mention here have persistent affects that work throughout your turn not just once per turn? It's confusing because there are plenty of cards that allow you to exchange X for Y, which I believe are meant to be a single exchange of X for Y, and not as many exchanges as you want, but then there are these cards that could go either way and I'm not sure how to interpret them.


I agree that this is a major pain in the ass. As far as I'm concerned, the phrasing does matter - if it says "each" or "every," that means all the time, whereas if it says "a," that means one, once (singular).

The card rules seem pretty clear that unless a card spells out that you can use it all the time, it is to be used once per turn only. This is how the office cards work - otherwise, there is no point to having multiples in the deck, as one would suffice for everything you wanted to do.

So, imho (and until we get a FAQ or a clear set of standards from Mr. Feld himself), I think it should be played as the English rules stipulate - if there is no "each, every, or whenever," then you can only use the card once per turn. To do otherwise makes many of the cards far too powerful, I would think.
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Alan Goodrich
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Great Dane wrote:
PS. Hope the US edition still has Mik's Tavern - as that is me


Yes, you are still there.
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Geeky McGeekface
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I don't think the Herald and the Carpenter are a problem, Tom, since you can only buy one city quarter space a turn (I don't think there's a card that lets you buy more than one). But I agree, this is a major problem and an official answer from Alea would be most welcome.
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Mik Svellov
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Larry Levy wrote:
I don't think the Herald and the Carpenter are a problem, Tom, since you can only buy one city quarter space a turn (I don't think there's a card that lets you buy more than one). But I agree, this is a major problem and an official answer from Alea would be most welcome.

No reason for alea to get involved as their cards are unambiguous. Seems like you would need to get answers from Rio Grande.

The Carpenter do give 1 coin EVERY time you buy a city quarter.
The Herald allow you to pay 3 gold instead of the cubes EVERY time you buy a City Quarter.

And there is a card that lets you buy a 2nd City Quarter EVERY turn: Night Watchman (or whatever he is called in the RGG ed.)
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Geeky McGeekface
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Well, if the German cards are unambiguous, then all we really need is an accurate translation of them. To the best of my knowledge, Jay did nothing more than translate this game into English. Any changes that were introduced were unintentional. So I don't see how anything from RGG would be helpful at this point.

I just checked otakugirly's translation of the cards from the file she posted on the Geek and it doesn't appear to be helpful. Her translations of all the cards except for the Cooperage include the word "a". Only Cooperage uses the word "each". She probably didn't think this aspect was too important. But what we really need is a precise translation of the card list so we know which cards are used only once a turn and which ones are active for the entire turn.
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Mik Svellov
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Larry Levy wrote:
I just checked otakugirly's translation of the cards from the file she posted on the Geek and it doesn't appear to be helpful. Her translations of all the cards except for the Cooperage include the word "a". Only Cooperage uses the word "each". She probably didn't think this aspect was too important.

Neither did Jay, apparently. But he is not alone.
I am also having difficulties understanding why "when activating a button" wouldn't mean 'everytime I activate it'.
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Rik Van Horn
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Am I missing something here?
the rules read:
3.6 Use cards
On his turn a player may use any number of activated cards....
Of course, some functions are only possible at certain times and he may only use each card once per turn (unless otherwise specified).

And on page 8 under the basic rules for all cards:
Each card may be at most once per round to do what is described on the card, unless the card specifically says otherwise (like, for example, "in each case", "everyone", or "every time").

The only card mentioned that says "every time" is the accountant. The others just say "when" or "whenever." I admit those terms can be ambiguous.

However, their very ambiguity seems to me to disqualify them from being clear representations of "every time" or "in each case" use.
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Steve K
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Rokkr wrote:
And on page 8 under the basic rules for all cards:
Each card may be at most once per round to do what is described on the card, unless the card specifically says otherwise (like, for example, "in each case", "everyone", or "every time").


The important phrase in this quote is "for example". To interpret "whenever" as being different from "every time" is a stretch.
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T. Rosen
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I guess I was being naive if I thought posting this thread would help clear up my confusion, but I certainly didn't expect it to just increase my confusion by an order of magnitude. A symbol for persistent effect cards would have been oh so nice! Ah well, I think I'll still enjoy the game, but the table will have to come to a consensus on each card that comes up for selection as to how it actually works before anyone commits to choosing it I suppose.
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Mik Svellov
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The German rules uses the 3 expressions: "jeweils", "jeder/jedes" and "immer wenn" for the 3 types of cards that are explicitly allowed to be used more than once.

This should be a complete list of all these cards, so cards not mentioned can only be used once per turn or at the end of the game.


9 cards uses the term "immer wenn (every time):

Accountant
"You receive 1 Gold every time you activate an Office card."
Carpenter
"You receive 1 Gold every time you take possession of a City District."
Count
"You may pay 4 Gold instead of the required AC every time you activate a card."
Embassy
"You receive 2 PP every time you gain Prestige from the Tribute Table."
Envoy
"Take 1 AC of your choice every time you gain Prestige from the Prestige Table."
Herald
"You may pay 3 Gold instead of the required AC every time you take possession of a city District."
Master Builder
"You receive 2 Gold every time you activate a Building."
Hospital
"You receive 1 Gold every time you activate a Person card."
Well
"Move 1 space forward on the Wall every time you buy a district."


15 cards uses the term jedes (each):

8 of these are Warehouses for the 8 types of Goods: they all doubles the PP you receive for each Good delievered.

4 cards allow you to pay 1 AC less:
Archive for each Office card you activate.
Crane for each Building you activate.
Healer for each Person card you activate.
Speculator for each City District you buy.

Cooperage
"You receive 1 PP more for each Goods tile you deliver."
Jester
"You may use each of your Joker (wild) tiles twice."
Lighthouse
"You receive 1 Gold for each Goods tile you deliver."

The Secretary does not contain any of the key words, but may still be used several times during your turn:
"You may use 1 Office card of each type twice."


These cards are Permanents that triggers every time you do the action:

Office Worker
"You receive 1 Gold for each Office card used."
Noble
"Receive 1 AC of any kind for each set of 2 Gold you return to the supply."
Professor
"You receive 1 Gold for each dice showing a "1" you pick."
Prospector
"You receive 1 Gold for each set of 3 AC of any color you return to the suply."
Scientist
"You receive 1 AC more than the number shown for each die you select."


The following cards are multiuse, but it is best to trigger them only ONCE.
(unless you are good at keeping track)

Cathedral
"Each AC of different colors (up to 6) you return will earn you 1 PP."

Soldier
"Receive 1 Gold for each set 4 of your own Possession markers you have in the city."

Town Hall - Stone Quarry - Treasury - Customs - Fort - Justice
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Administration" you have."
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Build" you have."
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Finance" you have."
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Customs" you have."
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Military" you have."
"You receive 1 PP for each active Office card "Justice" you have."
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Doug Richardson
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Boy, I wish I could join the conversation, but my copy of the game came without any cards at all.

Still checking my mailbox daily for some help from Jay...soblue
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Geeky McGeekface
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Doug, you win! No cards = no confusion!!!

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Geeky McGeekface
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Thanks, Mik, that's fantastic. Just what we English-speaking types needed.

Tom, I'm willing to use Mik's interpretations of the cards for our next game. What do you think?
 
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Rik Van Horn
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Is it that difficult to get Stefan to clear this up once and for all?
 
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Mik Svellov
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Rokkr wrote:
Is it that difficult to get Stefan to clear this up once and for all?

Not at all. I have asked him. to announce that "Mik is correct!"
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Great Dane wrote:
Rokkr wrote:
Is it that difficult to get Stefan to clear this up once and for all?

Not at all. If you really insist, I will ask him to announce that "Mik is correct!"


How about instead we get a list of the various (unique) cards in the game with a simple O(nce) / E(ach) indicator?
 
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Great Dane wrote:
Only two cards uses the term "jeweils" (each time/each set):
Edler (Nobleman)
"Receive 1 AC of any kind for each set of 2 Gold you return to the supply."
Soldat (Soldier)
"Receive 1 Gold for each set 4 of your own Possession markers you have in the city."

Neither of these cards may be triggered more than once, but will work for each set you have/pay.


What about the Goldsucher (Prospector)? According to the card translation here it also uses jeweils and seems to work very much like the Noble.

Edit: I also noticed that the Professor uses jede. But I'm guessing that he works more like the Noble and Soldier - once per turn, but for each die.
 
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Mik Svellov
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macron wrote:
What about the Goldsucher (Prospector)? According to the card translation here it also uses jeweils and seems to work very much like the Noble.

Edit: I also noticed that the Professor uses jede. But I'm guessing that he works more like the Noble and Soldier - once per turn, but for each die.

Yeah. I actually had the Professor on the list as a special case, but of course it works just the same as the Soldier, Prospector and several other cards: it may only be triggered once, but effect is repeatable.

I removed most of them as I found they confused the overall picture (as they cannot be more than once per turn) but then I left the Noble and Soldier - and missed the Prospector

I will update the post above to include all 12 cards that have repeatable effects that can only be triggered once per turn.
 
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