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Subject: Foxholes and Assualt Movment and Advances rss

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David Ettel
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I think I almost have this but I want to be sure...

I believe a unit which is in a foxhole may use assault movement to move to a different hex (assuming the total MFs expended < total MF available to the unit, of course). The MF cost would be 1 MF to exit the foxhole (in the same hex) and then the MF cost to move to the new hex. Is this right? Could a unit use assualt movement to move from under a foxhole in one hex to under a foxhole in another hex?

I also think it is legal to Advance from beneath a foxhole into a new hex (or even under another foxhole in the new hex).

Thanks for the help!
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Mark Evans
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As counter intuitive as all this is. Each statement you made is 100% correct.
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David Ettel
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Well, that makes me very nervous
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Mark Evans
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You should be, the more ASL makes sense, the less the real world makes sense, and thus your lapse into insanity.
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Ben Smith
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Foxholes are one of the more useless things in ASL IMO. These days I put them out of the way during setup, hopefully somewhere my enemy can't use them, and somewhere I won't be tempted to use them (well, possibly for Rout paths).

And unless absolutely necessary, never put a squad in a foxhole in Open Ground. When you eventually have to hop out, you cop -1 FFMO; And often PBF as well.

Deathtraps. shake
 
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Robin Reeve
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You can use Assault Move under two conditions :
- you don't spend more than your MF alotment (which can go up to 6 with the help of a leader)
- you don't move more than one Location (being in and out of an entrenchment is being in the same Location in this case).

Now, still be carefull : if you AM out of an entrenchment, you can be Defensive Fist Fired before you enter the adjacent hex, as it is not a combined MF expense.

The only time that such a type of move is considered 'combined'is during the RtPh (see 27.41).

Foxholes are deathtraps : you cannot leave them without considerable risks... unless DM during RtPh !

I generally use foxholes to 'pave rout paths' across OG (e.g. in villages, between buildings, across non paved roads).
Or, one hex behind the front row of woods' edge hexes (vs OBA, they change the -1 Airburst TEM to a combined +3).

Many players find the FH rules broken, but I seriously doubt that they will be changed, as thousands of scenarios have been designed with those crappy rules and the change would have a serious effect upon balance.

Trenches are another story, as they connect : you can string a row of them towards an 'out of LOS' sanctuary...
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Martí Cabré

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Robin wrote:
You can use Assault Move under two conditions :
- you don't spend more than your MF alotment (which can go up to 6 with the help of a leader)
- you don't move more than one Location (being in and out of an entrenchment is being in the same Location in this case).


I have always had the same doubt regarding AM & smoke:

1. if your MMC throws smoke in an adjacent location (2 MF) and then moves into it (2 MF), that's 4 MF. Can it be considered AM?
2. if 1 is false, what about using a leader and having 6 MF available?
3. can the unit be shot at using FF for throwing smoke?
4. if 2 is true, can it be shot twice as it spent 2 MF?

Thanks.
 
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Ben Smith
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Robin wrote:
Many players find the FH rules broken, but I seriously doubt that they will be changed, as thousands of scenarios have been designed with those crappy rules and the change would have a serious effect upon balance.


And many of those scenarios would have been play-tested with the old "Foxholes are good" mindset. Which makes them unbalanced if played by experienced players today. yuk
 
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Dan Owsen
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I don't see a problem with anything that has been said about foxholes. Foxholes are made for static defensive purposes. If you are leaving the foxholes, your defenses are compromised, which should be a bad situation. They're hastily prepared and should be of limited use and value.
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Mark Evans
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marticabre wrote:


I have always had the same doubt regarding AM & smoke:

1. if your MMC throws smoke in an adjacent location (2 MF) and then moves into it (2 MF), that's 4 MF. Can it be considered AM?
2. if 1 is false, what about using a leader and having 6 MF available?
3. can the unit be shot at using FF for throwing smoke?
4. if 2 is true, can it be shot twice as it spent 2 MF?

Thanks.


In order to assault move you need to spend less than your total MF allotment.

Case 1: Only if you declared double time.
Case 2: That would allow assault move.
Case 3: Yes, after the smoke marker is placed, or if the attempt fails.
Case 4: Yes.

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Martí Cabré

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drmark64 wrote:
marticabre wrote:

1. if your MMC throws smoke in an adjacent location (2 MF) and then moves into it (2 MF), that's 4 MF. Can it be considered AM?


Case 1: Only if you declared double time.


That is curious. Only if you declare double time you can use assault movement. This is also counter-intuitive, as I would think of double time of hastily doing things and not caring much about being heard or seen, which is the opposite of assault movement, if I understand it well.

I guess it is just the way it is.
 
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Ben Smith
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No, you cannot Assault Move if you use all of your non-Double Time MF.

4.61 Assault Movement: Non-berserk Infantry that remains Infantry throughout the MPh (i.e., Is not a PRC during that phase), and that moves one Location during its MPh without using all of its MF (including any leader/road bonus, but not Double Time), may use Assault Movement.

This means a squad on its own cannot pop Smoke then immediately AM into it.
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Robin Reeve
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marticabre wrote:
1. if your MMC throws smoke in an adjacent location (2 MF) and then moves into it (2 MF), that's 4 MF. Can it be considered AM?
Only if the unit is benefiting of a leader bonus and not carrying SWs that would reduce its MF alotment under 5MF
marticabre wrote:
2. if 1 is false, what about using a leader and having 6 MF available?
Yes.
marticabre wrote:
3. can the unit be shot at using FF for throwing smoke?
Yes. If the placement dr succeeds, the FF will apply the smoke DRM if the LOS crosses it. Otherwise, FF vs MF expense is allways possible.
marticabre wrote:
4. if 2 is true, can it be shot twice as it spent 2 MF?
Even more. Twice by the same FG, but you could have more than one FG firing at the placing squad.


Little off-topic tip :

Note something important about FF vs combined MF expenses : a FG can fire on the 1st MF, then another FG may fire on the 1st MF, then the first FG can fire on the 2nd MF, then the other FG may fire on the 2nd MF.

I missed that during years! surprise

I thought that a FG could not let another one DFF vs a given MF expense before firing vs the next MF expense - that is, in the case of a combined MF expense.
It does not apply, say, to a unit expending 1 MF to recover an abandoned SW then expending 1MF to throw smoke in its own Location (those are not two different MF expenses).

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Mark Evans
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b5mith wrote:
No, you cannot Assault Move if you use all of your non-Double Time MF.

4.61 Assault Movement: Non-berserk Infantry that remains Infantry throughout the MPh (i.e., Is not a PRC during that phase), and that moves one Location during its MPh without using all of its MF (including any leader/road bonus, but not Double Time), may use Assault Movement.

This means a squad on its own cannot pop Smoke then immediately AM into it.


Thanks for catching this Ben. I would hate to have people playing the wrong way on my account. I even had it underlined in my rulebook. So apparently I played it wrong before and forgot.

Yes, Ben is correct. Doubletime is not a way to make the Assault Move happen in Case 1.
 
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Mark McG
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b5mith wrote:

And unless absolutely necessary, never put a squad in a foxhole in Open Ground. When you eventually have to hop out, you cop -1 FFMO; And often PBF as well.

Deathtraps. shake


Foxholes = shallow graves
 
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Kevin Reynolds
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This really makes intuitive sense to me (that foxholes are of limited value).

I'm guessing they would be useful in combat (without any personal experience myself):
1) For concealment when an enemy does not know you are near
2) For defensive benefit during a barrage of explosive ordinance (mortars, artillery, indirect fire stuff)
3) For limited cover during a firefight, while in the foxhole
and lastly
4) To help you keep warm by keeping you out of the wind
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Paul Haseler
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Kevin

>1) For concealment when an enemy does not know you are near

Even if your unit is set up HIP, a Foxhole is visible to an enemy with LOS to it at 16 hexes or less. Don't set up Hidden in a foxhole, if you want it to be a surprise. NB. The Foxhole is not revealed in Jungle scenarios, but will be in the majority of ASL situations.


>2) For defensive benefit during a barrage of explosive ordinance >(mortars, artillery, indirect fire stuff)

This is true. Being inside a Foxhole means a Woods hex has +2TEM, and vastly improves your unit's survival chances under Mortar or OBA fire.


>3) For limited cover during a firefight, while in the foxhole

Risky when exiting the FH in Open Ground, so safest in Orchard or Grain or even Brush. Robin has already mentioned the usefulness of having a Foxhole available as a Rout path out a location that might otherwise be Interdicted.


>4) To help you keep warm by keeping you out of the wind

Not covered in ASL
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Mark McG
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Mollusc wrote:


>4) To help you keep warm by keeping you out of the wind

Not covered in ASL


Adv Shelter Leader rule B27.12 CAPACITY: A foxhole 1S counter has a capacity of one toasty warm squad (or its equivalent) regardless of how it was created. This capacity is not in addition to the warming limits of the hex itself.
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Martí Cabré

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Ok, now it makes more sense. One less doubt. A zillion to go...
 
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Robin Reeve
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Mollusc wrote:
This is true. Being inside a Foxhole means a Woods hex has +2TEM, and vastly improves your unit's survival chances under Mortar or OBA fire.
Vs OBA, the Foxhole has +4 TEM, which combined with -1 Airburst TEM is +3 TEM.
Vs mortar fire, it is +2 combined with -1, that is : +1.
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Paul Haseler
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Quote:
Vs OBA, the Foxhole has +4 TEM, which combined with -1 Airburst TEM is +3 TEM.
Vs mortar fire, it is +2 combined with -1, that is : +1.


Just so, a vastly preferable TEM when attacked by Mortar or OBA fire, if a unit is inside a Foxhole in a Woods hex, compared to that same unit in a Woods hex without a Foxhole.
 
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Robin Reeve
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Mollusc wrote:
Just so, a vastly preferable TEM when attacked by Mortar or OBA fire, if a unit is inside a Foxhole in a Woods hex, compared to that same unit in a Woods hex without a Foxhole.
Sure.
The main problem with foxholes is how to move out during MPh without taking considerable risks...
 
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Neal Durando
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Robin wrote:
Mollusc wrote:
Just so, a vastly preferable TEM when attacked by Mortar or OBA fire, if a unit is inside a Foxhole in a Woods hex, compared to that same unit in a Woods hex without a Foxhole.
Sure.
The main problem with foxholes is how to move out during MPh without taking considerable risks...


Meh, just rout out of them in RtPh....
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Robin Reeve
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Defense Linguistics wrote:
Meh, just rout out of them in RtPh....
Routing is easier, as the MF expense is combined with the MF of the next hex entered : that means that, if you rout from a FH in Open Ground into an ADJACENT non-Open Ground Location, there is no Interdiction.
 
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