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Subject: predetermining battle outcome before entering dungeon.... rss

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shamu geek
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My wife and I have been playing Thunderstone for several weeks now and we have been playing the dungeon part of the game differently from the rules. Due to my aptitude for quick math in my head, I've been at an advantage over my wife with regards to predetermining the battle outcomes with each hand I have. To be fair, we figure out the math for each hand relevant to the 3 available monsters in order to obtain victory/defeat status. If we determine that we are unable to defeat monsters with our hands, then we decide to either visit the village or rest, instead of committing to the dungeon. This action may go against the main theme of the game, but it makes the game go a lot faster and as smooth as the game, Dominion. Does anybody have an opinion on this way of playing?
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Ryan Metzler
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bondocbgg wrote:
My wife and I have been playing Thunderstone for several weeks now and we have been playing the dungeon part of the game differently from the rules. Due to my aptitude for quick math in my head, I've been at an advantage over my wife with regards to predetermining the battle outcomes with each hand I have. To be fair, we figure out the math for each hand relevant to the 3 available monsters in order to obtain victory/defeat status. If we determine that we are unable to defeat monsters with our hands, then we decide to either visit the village or rest, instead of committing to the dungeon. This action may go against the main theme of the game, but it makes the game go a lot faster and as smooth as the game, Dominion. Does anybody have an opinion on this way of playing?


I think nearly everyone plays this way...
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We play a varient that I created that rank 3 and 2 monsters in the hall remain face down until you try to attack one. If you enter the dungeon and decide to attack one of the rank 3 or 2 monsters then that monster is turned over. If you cannot attack it then your turn ends, else you must attack it and if you fail it goes to the bottom of the monster deck.
Rank 1 is always visable (because of Breach effects).
When you add a new monster to rank 3 on refill it remains facedown and if rank 2 is facedown and moves to rank 1 it is turned faceup and any Breach effect is resolved.
Face up monsters remain face up until defeated, destroyed, or moved to the bottom of the pile.

That may add some advantage for persons who have trouble quickly calculating wheither they can win or lose before entering the dungeon. Also it adds more mystery to the game.
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Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?
 
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fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?


Your revealed hand cannot do at least +1 attack or +1 magic attack against the monster.

This may not be official but themetically to make a monster go to the bottom of the pile you should at least be able to do some damage to it.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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Jamos wrote:
fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?


your hand cannot do at least +1 attack or +1 magic attack against it.


Via normal rules this simply means "you lose!"
 
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slaqr wrote:
Jamos wrote:
fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?


your hand cannot do at least +1 attack or +1 magic attack against it.


Via normal rules this simply means "you lose!"


Yes but normal rules also means that the monster goes to bottom of pile correct? We do not move them to bottom until you can atleast do some damage.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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Jamos wrote:
slaqr wrote:
Jamos wrote:
fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?


your hand cannot do at least +1 attack or +1 magic attack against it.


Via normal rules this simply means "you lose!"


Yes but normal rules also means that the monster goes to bottom of pile correct? We do not move them to bottom until you can atleast do some damage.


Heh, sounds like an interesting variant. Nice house rules!
 
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slaqr wrote:
Jamos wrote:
slaqr wrote:
Jamos wrote:
fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "if you cannot attack it"?


your hand cannot do at least +1 attack or +1 magic attack against it.


Via normal rules this simply means "you lose!"


Yes but normal rules also means that the monster goes to bottom of pile correct? We do not move them to bottom until you can atleast do some damage.


Heh, sounds like an interesting variant. Nice house rules!


I have this variant from the official rules that we use printed on a pdf.

I will upload it here as a unofficial variant rules maybe tommorow.
 
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Sounds like a great variant! If you are unable to attack the monster and it stays face up, does it still get to do its Battle Effects (destroy weapons or heroes, etc.)?
 
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fastspinecho wrote:
Sounds like a great variant! If you are unable to attack the monster and it stays face up, does it still get to do its Battle Effects (destroy weapons or heroes, etc.)?


Yes you suffer Battle Effect if you can attack (+1 attack or better), but the monster does not go to the bottom of the pile. Your turn ends.
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jim pinto

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bondocbgg wrote:
My wife and I have been playing Thunderstone for several weeks now and we have been playing the dungeon part of the game differently from the rules. Due to my aptitude for quick math in my head, I've been at an advantage over my wife with regards to predetermining the battle outcomes with each hand I have. To be fair, we figure out the math for each hand relevant to the 3 available monsters in order to obtain victory/defeat status. If we determine that we are unable to defeat monsters with our hands, then we decide to either visit the village or rest, instead of committing to the dungeon. This action may go against the main theme of the game, but it makes the game go a lot faster and as smooth as the game, Dominion. Does anybody have an opinion on this way of playing?


This is how I play.

Step one of every turn is to reveal your hand regardless, so doing 30 seconds of math before you make the decision to win/lose a fight is a good use of time in my opinion. In fact, you can usually be doing this on someone else's turn. And yes, it does speed up play.
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jim pinto

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Try this Variant:

Dark Dungeon
All Monster in the Dungeon Hall are face down.
When you choose to enter the dungeon, you may, before applying Dungeon Effects, peek at the Dungeon Hall Ranks (do not show them to the other players) you have enough Light to view before beginning the battle. If you have Light +2, you may look at Ranks 1 and 2.

If you do not have light, apply all Dungeon Effects before the Battle Phase. Then select a rank (blindly) and enter and start fighting. If you lose, the Monster turns face up and stays in that rank. It only retreats to the bottom of the deck if it was face up before the battle began (i.e. someone lost a previous battle to the monster).

This may create longer games, so I recommend the easier monsters with this variant. I also recommend in this variant, shuffling the Thunderstone into the bottom 15 cards. Cannot Attack rules still apply and can result in an effective "lost" turn.

Also try this variant with the loser of a battle getting 1 XP afterwards if the monster does not leave the Dungeon Hall.

I would avoid using spells like Banish in the village, because that's just asking for timing problems.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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jimpinto wrote:
Try this Variant:

Dark Dungeon
All Monster in the Dungeon Hall are face down.
When you choose to enter the dungeon, you may, before applying Dungeon Effects, peek at the Dungeon Hall Ranks (do not show them to the other players) you have enough Light to view before beginning the battle. If you have Light +2, you may look at Ranks 1 and 2.

If you do not have light, apply all Dungeon Effects before the Battle Phase. Then select a rank (blindly) and enter and start fighting. If you lose, the Monster turns face up and stays in that rank. It only retreats to the bottom of the deck if it was face up before the battle began (i.e. someone lost a previous battle to the monster).

This may create longer games, so I recommend the easier monsters with this variant. I also recommend in this variant, shuffling the Thunderstone into the bottom 15 cards. Cannot Attack rules still apply and can result in an effective "lost" turn.

Also try this variant with the loser of a battle getting 1 XP afterwards if the monster does not leave the Dungeon Hall.

I would avoid using spells like Banish in the village, because that's just asking for timing problems.


Thanks for this jim. Gonna add it to the Variants section so it can be more easily discovered...
 
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jim pinto

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So you can steal my idea and call it your own?

Ha.

I think not.
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shamu geek
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It is great to see different perspectives on playing Thunderstone. My new favorite word in game playing is "variant." Sometimes when you learn how to play new games, you accidently do things differently to get yourself past the learning curve, and somehow you stumble upon a variant of a game that the creators might not have intended. However, reading different opinions, questions that invoke concerns on forums, and natural instinct to do things differently, makes me smile when I and fellow gamers go off the reservation and enjoy a game, break the rules (knowing that a version 1.x of the rules might come out and contradict the first published rules) and want to play the game again. What Dominion tries to do in mulitiple expansions to create variety in play, Thunderstone does it in one release with vague and somewhat confusing rules. That in itself, where some people might find fault, is where others find true creativity and different ways to play the game; thus endless possibilties in the game itself. Even playing Thunderstone with our own rules, we surprise ourself with new questions and new answers, making us want to play more and more. This may be the one advantage Thunderstone has over Dominion. I can't wait for the expansion, but I can't wait to play again even more. Thanks for all your responses.
 
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bondocbgg wrote:
My wife and I have been playing Thunderstone for several weeks now and we have been playing the dungeon part of the game differently from the rules. Due to my aptitude for quick math in my head, I've been at an advantage over my wife with regards to predetermining the battle outcomes with each hand I have. To be fair, we figure out the math for each hand relevant to the 3 available monsters in order to obtain victory/defeat status. If we determine that we are unable to defeat monsters with our hands, then we decide to either visit the village or rest, instead of committing to the dungeon. This action may go against the main theme of the game, but it makes the game go a lot faster and as smooth as the game, Dominion. Does anybody have an opinion on this way of playing?


What do you do if you have a card in hand that lets you e.g. draw cards when you enter a battle?
If you don't enter the dungeon in this case, these cards get relatively useless.
I personally find it very interesting to have to commit to going to the dungeon relying on an additional card to make or break it.
 
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jimpinto wrote:
So you can steal my idea and call it your own?

Ha.

I think not.


Who's stealing who's ideas?? hehe!!whistle
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Jeff Thornsen
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ashman wrote:
bondocbgg wrote:
My wife and I have been playing Thunderstone for several weeks now and we have been playing the dungeon part of the game differently from the rules. Due to my aptitude for quick math in my head, I've been at an advantage over my wife with regards to predetermining the battle outcomes with each hand I have. To be fair, we figure out the math for each hand relevant to the 3 available monsters in order to obtain victory/defeat status. If we determine that we are unable to defeat monsters with our hands, then we decide to either visit the village or rest, instead of committing to the dungeon. This action may go against the main theme of the game, but it makes the game go a lot faster and as smooth as the game, Dominion. Does anybody have an opinion on this way of playing?


What do you do if you have a card in hand that lets you e.g. draw cards when you enter a battle?
If you don't enter the dungeon in this case, these cards get relatively useless.
I personally find it very interesting to have to commit to going to the dungeon relying on an additional card to make or break it.


Usually in those cases, the situation is:

1. I could kill the Rank 1 monster for 3 VP
2. But, IF I draw a good card, then I could kill the Rank 2 monster for 5 VP instead

So, you commit to the dungeon, draw a card, and then kill the best thing you can.
 
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jimpinto wrote:
Try this Variant:

Dark Dungeon
All Monster in the Dungeon Hall are face down.
When you choose to enter the dungeon, you may, before applying Dungeon Effects, peek at the Dungeon Hall Ranks (do not show them to the other players) you have enough Light to view before beginning the battle. If you have Light +2, you may look at Ranks 1 and 2.

If you do not have light, apply all Dungeon Effects before the Battle Phase. Then select a rank (blindly) and enter and start fighting. If you lose, the Monster turns face up and stays in that rank. It only retreats to the bottom of the deck if it was face up before the battle began (i.e. someone lost a previous battle to the monster).

This may create longer games, so I recommend the easier monsters with this variant. I also recommend in this variant, shuffling the Thunderstone into the bottom 15 cards. Cannot Attack rules still apply and can result in an effective "lost" turn.

Also try this variant with the loser of a battle getting 1 XP afterwards if the monster does not leave the Dungeon Hall.

I would avoid using spells like Banish in the village, because that's just asking for timing problems.


If all are concealed when would a Breach effect happen if you cannot see the card in rank 1?
 
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Jamos, in your variant what happens if someone turns over the Thunderstone?
 
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fastspinecho wrote:
Jamos, in your variant what happens if someone turns over the Thunderstone?


Haven't played it much but last time I remember it is the same as it moving to Rank 1 (Game Ends) if it was caused by killing a monster in Rank 1 then the player that killed it takes the Thunderstone (Game Ends), else if the Thunderstone reaches rank 1 by any other means the game just ends with no one taking the Thunderstone.

If you turn over the Thunderstone in battle and it is not in rank 1 then your turn ends.

If you reveal a Monster in battle and you do not have a +1 attack or a +1 magic attack (before battle effects) then your turn ends and you suffer its Battle Effect (if any). It does not move to the bottom of the monster pile.

If you attack a already revealed monster in battle and you do not have a +1 attack or a +1 magic attack (before battle effects) then your turn ends and you suffer its Battle Effect (if any). It does not move to the bottom of the monster pile.

You must attack a monster (if possible) when you enter the Dungeon.

If you reveal the Blink Dog in battle and you have a negative light penalty then your turn ends and you do not suffer any battle effects. (Light penalties are applied before the battle.)

Breach effects: when a unrevealed card is moved to rank 1 the card is revealed and the breach effect would occur.

For using the Banish if you rearrange or destroy a monster and the cards are moved causing a unrevealed card to rank 1 then you would reveal it (if its a Thunderstone game would end, If it has a breach effect then that would occur immediately.)

A round is over when all players have taken their turns. A new round begins when player 1 takes his turn again.

If for some reason no one can attack any of the monsters in rank 1, 2, and 3 and all players entered the dungeon in that round, all of the monsters in the hall would be revealed and go to the bottom of the pile after the last players turn in the round. If the Thundersone is in one of the hidden positions then the game would end.
I.E. in a 3 person game if all players choose to enter the dungeon in the same round and no one can attack (do +1 damage) to any of the monsters, then reveal all of the monsters in the hall (if not already revealed) and if there is no Thunderstone move all monsters to the bottom of the pile and redraw 3 new monsters from the draw deck as in initial setup. Rank 2 and 3 hidden Rank 1 exposed.

If you can attack a monster with at least a +1 attack and lose you suffer the battle effect penalties (if any) and that monster goes to the bottom of the pile. If you have a +1 attack you must attack a monster if able (not a Blink Dog with negative light penalty or a Thunderstone).

We are currently rewriting these rules due to playtesting so they may change soon.

Jim's variant would never end because he says keep all hidden, also his variant wouldn't work for Breach effects.
 
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