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Subject: Quick opinions -- Wargames? rss

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Scott A. Reed
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Are these items Wargames in what you understand Wargames to be ?

Poll
StarCraft: The Board Game
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
Yes
8.8% 7
No
91.2% 73
Voters 80
Runewars
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
Yes
8.9% 7
No
91.1% 72
Voters 79
This poll is now closed.   80 answers
Poll created by skelebone
Closes: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:00 am


Also, commentary on the reasons behind your answers are welcome.
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Gotthard Heinrici (prev. Graf Strachwitz)
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To me both are space / fantasy themed 'Ameritrash' games.
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Keith Mageau
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Neither game is a direct conflict simulation (hypothetical or realistic). There other aspects (mechanics) that are not generally in-line with the typical wargame.
 
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John Di Ponio
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Nope.....I do not classify these as wargames. A wargame to me is a conflict based on an histrotical or hypothetical conflict based on real world events. Fantasy and Space conflicts are not real world events.
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John Kovacs
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JohnnyD wrote:
Nope.....I do not classify these as wargames. A wargame to me is a conflict based on an histrotical or hypothetical conflict based on real world events. Fantasy and Space conflicts are not real world events.


Ditto...although someday the space conflicts might become real world events...
 
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Andrea Olivieri
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Not Ameritrash... trash only!
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Darrell Hanning
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Granted, these are not "conflict simulations".

Granted, too, these are not historical conflict simulations or historical wargames.

But the primary focus of each is war - armed conflict between national, cultural or otherwise-organized forces.

There is nothing about the term "wargame" that mandates it be a game covering a historical conflict.

James Dunnigan's The Next War (1978) was unarguably both a "wargame" and a "conflict simulation". And yet the war it dealt with - while plausible at the time - never occurred. I could name five dozen other, such games.

Likewise, there is nothing about the term "wargame" that mandates it demonstrates a certain degree of effort to specifically simulate a given conflict. (And if there were such a mandate, how does one go about quantifying the degree necessary for "compliance"? Where is that threshold set, and how is it measured?)

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Dr ?
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DarrellKH wrote:
Granted, these are not "conflict simulations".

Granted, too, these are not historical conflict simulations or historical wargames.

But the primary focus of each is war - armed conflict between national, cultural or otherwise-organized forces.

There is nothing about the term "wargame" that mandates it be a game covering a historical conflict.

James Dunnigan's The Next War (1978) was unarguably both a "wargame" and a "conflict simulation". And yet the war it dealt with - while plausible at the time - never occurred. I could name five dozen other, such games.

Likewise, there is nothing about the term "wargame" that mandates it models a certain degree of effort to specifically simulate a given conflict. (And if there were such a mandate, how does one go about quantifying the degree necessary for "compliance"? Where is that threshold set, and how is it measured?)


Oh God, here it comes!

(BTW I totally agree with you---but wait for the responses!)
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Mac McKinlay
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When We the People came out, when the first of Columbia's block games came out, when Storm Over Arnhem, A House Divided and Star Force came out, the natural reaction was that they didn't fit into the category of wargame.
But that category developed, over a relatively short time, out of what we had seen before. It helped us group of similar games being produced mostly by Avalon Hill and SPI. (Previously the term had been used exclusively for miniatures games.) The new games simply changed the category.

Breadth of game design trumps critical categories. Maybe the question should be, of what use is the category, wargame, at this point in our cultural development? Perhaps it would be better defined as one of many modifiers applied to games of complex function. Certainly the example games have wargame features, just as most of the games we tend to call wargames now have qualities shared by other genres.
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Darrell Hanning
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MacMcMac wrote:
When We the People came out, when the first of Columbia's block games came out, when Storm Over Arnhem, A House Divided and Star Force came out, the natural reaction was that they didn't fit into the category of wargame.
But that category developed, over a relatively short time, out of what we had seen before. It helped us group of similar games being produced mostly by Avalon Hill and SPI. (Previously the term had been used exclusively for miniatures games.) The new games simply changed the category.

Breadth of game design trumps critical categories. Maybe the question should be, of what use is the category, wargame, at this point in our cultural development? Perhaps it would be better defined as one of many modifiers applied to games of complex function. Certainly the example games have wargame features, just as most of the games we tend to call wargames now have qualities shared by other genres.


I agree to an extent with your conclusion, but as far as the SPI games, they were called "conflict simulations" by SPI. That was the direction Jim Dunnigan wanted to go - deeper into more factors about a given conflict, than Avalon Hill had traditionally gone. Of course, AH ultimately responded in kind, but the bar had been set by SPI.

Which just brings us back around to what is a "conflict simulation" versus a "wargame". Obviously, the former can be a subset of the latter, but that set does not contain members exclusively in the "wargame" superset. That is, "conflict" is not always synonymous with "war", while war is always a conflict.
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No, they are not...
BGG would benefit from having a Miniature game category where these game like Warhammer would fit and that are usually about conflict and battles themes with figurines with a focus on game, collection and fun rather than on military simulation per say...
Ont he same line a Block game category would be great as this gender is now quite popular...
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howl hollow howl
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I have been using the term "Multi-Player Conquest Games" for many years to describe such games.

I'm not sure "multi-player" is necessary there, but it does help highlight the difference between wargames, which are usually 2-player.

With the surge of chrome-laden but free-flying multi-player games like Sword of Rome, Wellington, and Here I Stand, I've become less comfortable with this term, but still use it. (And all three of these games I call "wargames" because of the historical chrome.)
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Larz Welo
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I also don't think they're wargames. They do have war as one element. But, they are neither in the wargame style (like Here I Stand), nor dependant upon conflict to succeed (like History of the World), nor exclusively two-player (like every other wargame ever).
 
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Dennis Shaper
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In my opinion, if you have to ask then the answer must be no.
War games are a simulation of battle or war. So, if you can't tell if your game is either of those then you have your answer.
Do armies meet to decide the game? Is conflict the purpose of the game?
 
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B. G. Kubacki
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JohnnyD wrote:
Nope.....I do not classify these as wargames. A wargame to me is a conflict based on an histrotical or hypothetical conflict based on real world events. Fantasy and Space conflicts are not real world events.


Really? So, how come 4000 AD and Starship Troopers are still on that list? Is it just because of the miniatures?

Oh, and speaking of miniatures:

Desaix wrote:

BGG would benefit from having a Miniature game category where these game like Warhammer would fit and that are usually about conflict and battles themes with figurines with a focus on game, collection and fun rather than on military simulation per say...


So, you think that Runewars and Starcaft would fit that category? I hope that I read you wrong and that you are not really proposing putting them into the same category as, say Warhammer. If you are, this means you need to set your data straight, because you're way out in the woods now.

This thread reminds me of another one I read some time ago. It was about eyecandy wargames (like Lock N Load for example) and some people actually said they like playing older games because they like their hobby to look "serious". I suspect, that playing with dolls (miniatures) would really be a blow to their self-confidence then.

Anyway, I'm slowly beginning to suspect that excluding RW and SC is more a sign of snobbery and prejudice than anything else. But, I do understand that people like to be part of an "elite" group even within their chosen hobby (boardgames). After all, the feeling of being better than the uneducated mob (easily swayed by clear rulebooks and quality components) is something a lot of us love.
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Colin Hunter
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I like the repetition.
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Leo Zappa
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Pound for pound, repetition is the best.
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John Bobek
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Quote:
Oh, and speaking of miniatures:


Desaix wrote:

BGG would benefit from having a Miniature game category where these game like Warhammer would fit and that are usually about conflict and battles themes with figurines with a focus on game, collection and fun rather than on military simulation per say...


So, you think that Runewars and Starcaft would fit that category? I hope that I read you wrong and that you are not really proposing putting them into the same category as, say Warhammer. If you are, this means you need to set your data straight, because you're way out in the woods now.

This thread reminds me of another one I read some time ago. It was about eyecandy wargames (like Lock N Load for example) and some people actually said they like playing older games because they like their hobby to look "serious". I suspect, that playing with dolls (miniatures) would really be a blow to their self-confidence then.


I missed Desaix's post. Miniature's NOT a military simulation? That's nuts!

"Dolls?!" When would miniatures be classified as "dolls?!!!"

Action figures is a stretch. They're toy soldiers, nothing more, nothing less!
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Eric Williams
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"Wargames" once upon a time were table top battles that used painted figures. Movement was controlled with a ruler or tape measure as was range. It was (and still is) a very time consuming and expensive hobby.

What places like Avalon Hill and SPI did is exchange the tape measures for hexes or "area's" and the figures for cardboard chits. They also took the traditional from the tactical "battle" and made it possible to play out the strategic "war".

Things have kept moving and developing. For mine, I'd class a game a "wargame" if it can draw a line back to these early fathers...
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mario p.
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Desaix wrote:
Ont he same line a Block game category would be great as this gender is now quite popular...


(and we know you don't like it !)
I'm sure the day after BGG founds the block category someone will start the thread "is C&C:A a real blockgame? - is NT a real blockgame?" (and I would probably participate in the thread!).
I've always wondered why wargamers seem to die for taxonomy and precision...
 
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John Bobek
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Quote:
"Wargames" once upon a time were table top battles that used painted figures. Movement was controlled with a ruler or tape measure as was range. It was (and still is) a very time consuming and expensive hobby.


I believe "time consuming and expensive" pretty much defines the word hobby.
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cicciburicci wrote:
I've always wondered why wargamers seem to die for taxonomy and precision...


Because wargamers are stereotypically considered to be concerned with precision and detail?
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Chester
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If I didn't know better, I'd think Scott purposely tried to start up this same old debate. But surely no.
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James Lowry
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leroy43 wrote:
cicciburicci wrote:
I've always wondered why wargamers seem to die for taxonomy and precision...


Because wargamers are stereotypically considered to be concerned with precision and detail?

I don't know about you, but I'm concerned with the repetition.

devil
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