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Subject: I played Memoir with my Dad and he liked it... so whats the next step up? rss

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Jason Gong
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A couple months back I picked up Memoir 44 for the sole purpose to get my Dad into gaming. I figured I would start him off on something easy and work my way up from there. We have been having a blast with Memoir and I think its time that we move on to something with a little more depth. I have been on BGG doing some research on all the wargames and am not sure which wargame would be right for us. The next step being a very good wargame with a little more depth. I have CCA and CoH, which I game with my buddy but I dont think my Dad is ready for, but Im hoping that we could work our way up to it.


A couple games I have my eye on is:

Hammer of the scots - seems like a medium wargame and only has eight pages of rules. Although I think my Dad is more into the WWII scene as he was in the army.

Combat Commander - Very good ratings. Skimmed through the rules and not sure if this is the next step.



Any suggestions with a little commentary is appreciated.


Thanks ahead of time for the replies.
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Beau Bailey
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jgong101 wrote:
A couple months back I picked up Memoir 44 for the sole purpose to get my Dad into gaming. I figured I would start him off on something easy and work my way up from there. We have been having a blast with Memoir and I think its time that we move on to something with a little more depth. I have been on BGG doing some research on all the wargames and am not sure which wargame would be right for us. The next step being a very good wargame with a little more depth. I have CCA and CoH, which I game with my buddy but I dont think my Dad is ready for, but Im hoping that we could work our way up to it.


A couple games I have my eye on is:

Hammer of the scots - seems like a medium wargame and only has eight pages of rules. Although I think my Dad is more into the WWII scene as he was in the army.

Combat Commander - Very good ratings. Skimmed through the rules and not sure if this is the next step.



Any suggestions with a little commentary is appreciated.


Thanks ahead of time for the replies.


I'd recommend Hold the Line (though not WWII).

Combat Commander is a step up from CoH and CC:A, so if you think those are too tough, I'd wait on CC:E (even though it is my favorite game). Hammer of the Scots wouldn't be a bad choice either.

As for WWII, I think if you slowly introduced him to CoH, he should be able to pick it up.
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Caleb
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If you like Memoir 44, may I recommend Victory: The Blocks of War, a block game by Columbia. Like Memoir it's a "kit" game with a bunch (though not as many as Memoir) of scenarios. In addition to the base game, I recommend the Elite block sets in Blue and Red, as well as at least 4 additional maps. If you really find you like it, get the Logistics Set.

The maps are geomorphic and there are some good scenarios on the game's page here and on CG's site. It's "generic" WWII technology, and the topography and place-names on the maps correspond to real-world countries, sort of (e.g. there are maps that are obviously stand-ins for France, Germany, Russia, Britain, Japan, Finland, Midway, etc.)

Some have complained about the drawish nature of the game, but I have to say in all the games I've played FTF so far, they've all been tense and exciting.

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Joel K
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jgong101 wrote:
We have been having a blast with Memoir and I think its time that we move on to something with a little more depth. I have been on BGG doing some research on all the wargames and am not sure which wargame would be right for us. The next step being a very good wargame with a little more depth.

(My bold added)

Just to be clear...did he express an interest in moving on to more complex games? It could be that he's perfectly happy to just continue playing Memoir '44. I only mention it because I've fallen into this common gamer trap in the past--somebody plays Game X and is having fun, so from your gamer perspective you assume they'll want to try Games Y and Z. Not necessarily.

All that said, Hammer of the Scots is a fine game, and probably the right kind (more complex, but not overwhelmingly so).
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Trent Hamm
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I would get a Memoir expansion or two before moving on to an entirely new war game. They add complexity to the base game, don't alter the rules too much, and allow you to carefully feel whether or not your ol' dad is up to more and more complex games.

Also, note that M44's components and craftsmanship are quite high and other games may not have that same visual and tactile appeal, which is huge for many gamers.
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Bob Menzel
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Tide of Iron might be a nice move
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Bartow Riggs
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Command and Colors: Ancients.



More play options for strategy and tactics. And nicer components. You get great looking and easy to manipulate blocks instead of ugly hard to move miniatures.

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Chad Oatman
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CoH was the first thing that popped into my head, but as I read on you seem to think that it was too difficult. I would just remind you that the rules are written to learn as you go, and introduces more depth the further along you go. Seems like a perfect fit for your situation, plus I assume you already own it, so there is a nice bonus. I'd have him read the first section and ask him if it interested him. Just my $0.02.
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Jamieson Teo
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Yeah.. I agree with the rest the CoH seems to be a good step up. Was able to nail down the rules with a friend after 2 sessions of the first scenario. Since you already have it, why not give a whirl with dad? Need not buy more unless he doesn't like it.

Anyhow, its nice to hear that you've taken time out to introduce and play boardgames with your dad. laugh
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Mike Szarka
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Like others I also recommend some of the Columbia block games. Rommel in the Desert has not too many units and plays quickly if WW2 theme is important.

Another fantastic transition game would be A House Divided if ACW is of interest. Again a simple game but with great strategic options and a good flavour of the conflict.

Some of the old AH "classic" games still hold up well. The Russian Campaign (long but fairly simple), Panzerblitz (not very realistic but fun), Anzio (a personal favourite) are all possible choices.

I would also recommend many of the non-monster Command magazine games.

Napoleon's Last Battles is also a simple introduction to "traditional" wargames.

Overall though my top choice would be A House Divided. Note that one of the newer versions has a bunch of optional rules, most of which I found increased the die rolling without adding much to the game in terms of either realism or strategy.

Mike
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Chad Oatman
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If CoH really seems like too much for your dad, you could always check out any number of the titles from Victory Point Games. No Retreat, Waterloo 20, Bulge 20, etc. they are great little games, they even have a line of "Battlelesson" games designed for new comers to wargaming.
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Hunga Dunga
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My suggestion would be to try CC:A. If that's too complex a step, then stick with M'44.

The important thing is that your Dad is having fun, and there's enough in M'44 to keep him amused for a while!

You should also ask him what eras he likes: more WWII? What about WWII eastern front?
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Gotthard Heinrici (prev. Graf Strachwitz)
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Liberty: The American Revolution 1775-83 / Hammer of the Scots

Depending on the theme you like.

Excellent games, relatively simple, great fun!!

(earlier suggested Rommel in the Dessert is a great game but it is difficult to master all rules and the step from Memoir '44 is too big imo)
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Mike M
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It has already been said but I believe that because of the progressive learning, Conflict of Heroes is really easy to pick up if you start with the first few scenarios. Even with subsequent scenarios, the only really somewhat complicated thing in the rules are group actions, and you can leave those out for some time.
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Jason Cleal
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I would suggest Commands and colors.
But me personally i also love Memoir 44 so you could even go and start getting the expansions and the campaign book. Your dad should love these.
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Jason Gong
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Thanks for all the replies first. There are so many options to go through and I will be doing a lot of rules reading the next couple of days to see which is the right game to go with. As this is my off day from work, I just finished a scenario of Memoir over at my Dads place. The allies (me) had it rough today. My infantry couldnt roll for a hit if their life depended on it, and they didnt so I got my ass handed to me... lol.

After reading all the replies I think I will go with an expansion first, see how that goes, and find a game in between the complexity of Memoir and CoH. Although I do think Memoir Thats what its all about right?

There is a little backstory to my situation that I would like to share if you guys are willing to read my rant. If not, thanks again for all the suggestions.

RANT begins here ( a Boardgamer origin story with all the trials and tribulations of converting non-believers)

I have been a gamer all my life playing anything from cards to boardgames to videogames and still am today, basically anything competitive. My friends are also very much gamers, although boardgames are a different story for them. When I first started playing boardgames as a adult I loved all the complexity that came with it. Twilight Struggle has been a favorite of mine for a long time now, but sadly I dont have much FTF time with it. Boardgaming hasnt really catched on with my friends. I have a friend who I got into Heroscape but that is about it. The first boardgame that I tried to get my brother into was CCA which was the epic mistake and epic fail. Ever since then the overall feelings toward boardgames hasnt been all that great. I wasnt all that sure why boardgaming wasnt catching on with my friends, I do now. I started off my gaming group with Puerto Rico. PERIOD. They didnt like all the fiddliness that came with the boardgames. The number of rules that you have to learn. It was too much work. The strategy of games were a plus, but all the management that came with the games were too much for them. From there on I went with lighter games. Cutthroat Caverns, Munchkin, Manila all produced a lot of fun nights but never was an encore requested for. Im starting to think boardgaming is like gender preference, you like them or you dont and it is hard to turn one to your side if they arent already on your side(a la Vader turning Luke, really?, Vader was his Dad and he said no). So I have been taking baby steps toward converting people I know.

I have Pandemic in store for my friends this weekend. I hope this is the one that will convert them( to the dark side of the force) to one of us. If only they can see what we see.

Thanks
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Romian Tuesta-Vilca
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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943 and Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42

and

Commands & Colors: Ancients

and

ALL the Memoir 44 EXPANSIONS!!!

ninja

Edit:
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jgong101 wrote:
So I have been taking baby steps toward converting people I know.

I highly recommend Ticket to Ride for this
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David Janik-Jones
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Valor & Victory, Barry Doyle's brilliant (free) print and play WW2 tactical wargame. Can't be recommended highly enough and because it's a traditional hex and chit wargame with great, easy flowing rules, you'll find out if he's interested with very little cost to yourself.
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james collins
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I can honestly say that I don't have a recomendation but I think it's great that you got your dad into gaming. For some it's too late, but not for you. Just more was to spend time with family. Thumbs up!thumbsup
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Mike McClellan
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I think A House Divided isn't a bad idea. Simple strategic game on the Civil War - not an exotic topic. Another one to consider might be Blood of Noble Men - Worthington Games' block game on the Alamo, or their game Cowboys, which is a tactical game on gunfights in the old west. Both are pretty simple, but I know your dad has watched Westerns, and certainly knows about the Alamo. Good luck!

Now If I could just get my son to play wargames with me!
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Valor & Victory, Barry Doyle's brilliant (free) print and play WW2 tactical wargame. Can't be recommended highly enough and because it's a traditional hex and chit wargame with great, easy flowing rules, you'll find out if he's interested with very little cost to yourself.


+1
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When I first read this thread I thought CoH might be a bit too big a step up for a non wargamer. Then I started thinking and changed my mind.

Memoir has an appeal to non wargamers because of its simplicity and the asthetic look it has. Moving to a counter wargame might lose some appeal, but then you look at the counters in CoH and think that this might be a good step to take. There are some scenarios in CoH that are very simple and on par with memoir.

Show your father the infantry counters in CoH and explain what some of the stats mean and how easy it is to work out movement and combat using them. See how he feels about them and take it from there.

As one poster pointed out he may not want to move on and be perfectly happy with Memoir. By showing him a game you already have, it may save you money, but just because he dosen't want to move on now dosen't mean he wont want to in the future.
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Ask yourself what he liked about memoir
If he likes the card play CCA would be good
Its an ancients game so the feel is differnt. Leadership and unit formations are key here. Also many unit types and less terrain


If he likes the miniatures tide of iron is a good one but setup time and gameplay takes a while. Games can last 3 hours, and putting all the units together can be a little fiddly

If he likes the short easy gameplay hold the line would be great. Its tactical with no cards so there is no getting trapped in a section by bad cards.

Conflict of heroes is definitely easy in some way, and you learn more as you go. Each scenario adds more.

Hold the line is my best guess

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