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Subject: Retreating an Austrian general near a French supply rss

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Chad DeShon
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I have had the chance to play as the Pragmatic/Prussia leader twice. In both games I was able to take advantage of this situation.

On my turn I attacked an Austrian general with > 6 armies near the center of the Bohemian map. I defeated the general in battle by four or five. This let me retreat that general four spaces. I used that move to send the general flying off to the West, placing it within three spaces of the French supply train.

It was Austria's turn next. They took advantage of their new position on the map and wiped out the only French supply train on that side of the game board. This devastated the French offensive. All their generals had to come running home, taking loses in the meantime.

Is this maneuver really allowed in the rules. It seems like a harsh penalty for the French player. And, as the French player, I do not know how I would stop this from happening to me. At the end of the French turn his supply was 7 spaces from the nearest enemy general. The Austrian general could conceivably move 10 spaces to attack a French supply train without the French have a chance to respond.

If this is a legal play, it is certainly something to keep an eye on. You should try to guard against it as the French, use at as a way to indirectly attack France with Prussia, and make lemonade out of lemon after taking a tough loss as the Austrians.
 
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Jérôme
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BlueWaldo wrote:
I defeated the general in battle by four or five. This let me retreat that general four spaces.


This has rarely happened in our plays of Maria and Friedrich (maybe because of cautinousness), but I don't see why the following retreat path should be illegal.
 
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Chad DeShon
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This would have been very rare in Friedrich in our group, but it has been happening more often in Maria. I expect that we (especially Austria) play more aggressively than we should. Once one person starts being aggressive it breads aggressiveness. We have played five games, and we haven't made it to the second winter yet.

I'm up to play Austria in our next game. Hopefully I can stretch it out a little longer.
 
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jbrier
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BlueWaldo wrote:
The Austrian general could conceivably move 10 spaces to attack a French supply train without the French have a chance to respond.


When you say 10 do you mean 7 retreat + 3 move? To be technically correct, there could be a double-stack of Austrian generals, in which case the retreat could be up to 15, and to be precise the Austrian general's movement could be up to 4. So in actuality, an Austrian general could end up 19 spaces away from where it started at the beginning of the French player's turn.


OK< that was just a technicality.


Oops, that's wrong. Didn't think that through.

To address the spirit of your question, regarding the question of whether it is a fair tactic as the Prussians to have the Austrians retreat into striking distance of a French supply train, I think for the sake of rules simplicity you have to allow it. Are you really going to have a rules exception that says you cannot do so? It would add another gamey layer to the spatial tactics of the game, which only perpetuates the oddity of the situation. At the end of the day, it is an unusual enough situation that it doesn't justify making special accommodations for it in the rulebook.
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Fabian Mainzer
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verandi wrote:
BlueWaldo wrote:
The Austrian general could conceivably move 10 spaces to attack a French supply train without the French have a chance to respond.


When you say 10 do you mean 7 retreat + 3 move? To be technically correct, there could be a double-stack of Austrian generals, in which case the retreat could be up to 15, and to be precise the Austrian general's movement could be up to 4. So in actuality, an Austrian general could end up 19 spaces away from where it started at the beginning of the French player's turn.


Because of the cards, the highest loss/retreat path can be 9 (an unanswered 10 played at -1).

Still, a cool maneuver. Very costly for the Austrians though, who should by all means avoid harsh defeats. However, the French should really guard their supply well.
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richard sivel
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Yes, that is a legeal move. -- And it was intended when writing the rules to be a legal move. Consider it as Prussian betrayal against the French. These sort of betrayals had happened during the WAS, for instance the secret armistice of Kleinschnellendorf which set free the Austrian army to engage the French.

Note that the French could try to convince Prussia to choose another retreat path by paing a subsidy for 1, 2, or 3 turns, or whatever :-)
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Mark Luta
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Another such move which can be done with, or without, collusion, is for the Austria player to defeat a French army and then retreat it within range of walking over a Rhine Electorate the next turn, so to take back a Pragmatic VP for the 3/4 Electorates, possibly preventing an imminent Pragmatic Army victory....
 
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Steve Cox
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How would players react if the parties to this sort of skulduggery started discussing their plan in the middle of the fighting, eg. 'if you play less than a 6, I will concede the battle, provided you agree to retreat me towards city X'? Presumably such an agreement would not be binding, but even so, if it was in the interests of both combatants...?
 
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Mark Luta
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I think all diplomatic agreements in this game are binding, and as Richard pointed out, there were many such shennanigans in battles during this period. There were fake 'seiges', 'help' would fail to arrive on schedule...But, I think players should be reasonable and not agonize over every battle card for diplomatic gain!
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