Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
34 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Imperial 2030» Forums » General

Subject: Where will it stop? UPDATE: Is it an expansion or not? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Axel
Austria
Salzburg
Salzburg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been watching Imperial 2030's rank some time now. Now that it popped up in the 200s, I ask myself where it will stop. Will it end up somewhere near the original Imperial (currently ranked 29)?

I just love this game. To me it scratches so many different itches that its almost a panacea to all itches . I hope it climbs to the top 50 games. Where do you think it belongs?

Update: This thread quickly evolved into a discussion whether Imperial 2030 is an expansion or not.
3 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charly Travers
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
I like 2030 better than the original Imperial.It's a top 5 game for me. Not sure how high it could get in the BGG rankings though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Why this this being ranked? It's an expansion, and should not be counted for rankings accordingly...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
Avatar
mbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
I tried to apply a correction as such, but the admins declined it. In their view it is not an expansion. I disagree, though I greatly enjoy the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
How is this an expansion? Isn't it a complete game in a box, not needing the original Imperial to play? I thought it was simply a reimagining of the Imperial theme in a near-future setting. Strictly speaking, I don't see this as an expansion. Am I missing something???
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Axel
Austria
Salzburg
Salzburg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
blueatheart wrote:
Why this this being ranked? It's an expansion, and should not be counted for rankings accordingly...


No it is not an expansion. It is a full game, altough a rework of Imperial.

There are "expansion kits" for owners of the original Imperial (new map and other materials), sold directly by PD-Verlag. But they contain 90% of the materials of Imperial 2030. With the "expansion kit" all you need from the original is the money and the wooden tokens. I would not call it an expansion kit but rather a modification kit.

If Imperial 2030 was an expension, so would be all Ticket to Ride editions, Dominion sets, Aquaretto, ...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
desertfox2004 wrote:
How is this an expansion? Isn't it a complete game in a box, not needing the original Imperial to play? I thought it was simply a reimagining of the Imperial theme in a near-future setting. Strictly speaking, I don't see this as an expansion. Am I missing something???


There is a precedent previously set when they removed Dominion: Intrigue from the list of applicable ranked games. It was also a "stand-alone expansion."

While I would much prefer to see Imperial 2030 grace the Top-30, due to a similar user bias as all other expansion cases it should be treated as such.

One difference, of course, is that there is not the foundation of a large quantity of users who played Imperial originally, and many will only play 2030 first - whereas this didn't happen with Dominion (nearly all players of Intrigue had played Dominion). So the bias is less obvious, the game in general less obscure and less likely to generate controversy.

In all honesty, I don't care about the rankings; and BGG should do whatever it wants, but it does seem logical to argue for consistency.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Axel
Austria
Salzburg
Salzburg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
blueatheart wrote:

One difference, of course, is that there is not the foundation of a large quantity of users who played Imperial originally, and many will only play 2030 first - whereas this didn't happen with Dominion (nearly all players of Intrigue had played Dominion). So the bias is less obvious, the game in general less obscure and less likely to generate controversy.


Yep. I for one was only interested in Imperial 2030 when I found out about the game, so I only have played (and own) the former. The theme and graphics of Imperial 2030 appeal to me much more than the original.

Altough consistency would be nice, it is nearly impossible. There already are so many disputed cases on BGG... .
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
ignozius wrote:
The theme and graphics of Imperial 2030 appeal to me much more than the original.


Really? The theme of manipulating worldwide countries into war for your personal gain is much more appealing than the theme of manipulating European countries into war for your personal gain?

The graphics of a bunch of people around a table is much more appealing than a bunch of people around a paper map? The flag tokens are much more appealing than the wooden disks? The smaller bonds are much more appealing than the larger bonds?

These are the only thematic and graphical differences I see.

I don't understand the mindset, I must confess.
3 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
blueatheart wrote:
ignozius wrote:
The theme and graphics of Imperial 2030 appeal to me much more than the original.


Really? The theme of manipulating worldwide countries into war for your personal gain is much more appealing than the theme of manipulating European countries into war for your personal gain?

The graphics of a bunch of people around a table is much more appealing than a bunch of people around a paper map? The flag tokens are much more appealing than the wooden disks? The smaller bonds are much more appealing than the larger bonds?

These are the only thematic and graphical differences I see.

I don't understand the mindset, I must confess.


How do blind people play boardgames? I salute you, sir!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joakim Fältman
Sweden
Helsingborg
flag msg tools
badge
Red Sonic Underwear
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
blueatheart wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
How is this an expansion? Isn't it a complete game in a box, not needing the original Imperial to play? I thought it was simply a reimagining of the Imperial theme in a near-future setting. Strictly speaking, I don't see this as an expansion. Am I missing something???


There is a precedent previously set when they removed Dominion: Intrigue from the list of applicable ranked games. It was also a "stand-alone expansion."

While I would much prefer to see Imperial 2030 grace the Top-30, due to a similar user bias as all other expansion cases it should be treated as such.

One difference, of course, is that there is not the foundation of a large quantity of users who played Imperial originally, and many will only play 2030 first - whereas this didn't happen with Dominion (nearly all players of Intrigue had played Dominion). So the bias is less obvious, the game in general less obscure and less likely to generate controversy.

In all honesty, I don't care about the rankings; and BGG should do whatever it wants, but it does seem logical to argue for consistency.


While I don't really care about rankings either I do not feel Imperial 2030 compares to Dominion: Intrigue.

Imperial 2030 can not be used as an expansion to Imperial in any way. It may be very similar to the original game, but that doesn't make it an expansion!

Dominion: Intrigue on the other hand can either be played stand-alone or as an expansion to Dominion. Thus being a "stand-alone expansion".
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Axel
Austria
Salzburg
Salzburg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
blueatheart wrote:
ignozius wrote:
The theme and graphics of Imperial 2030 appeal to me much more than the original.


Really? The theme of manipulating worldwide countries into war for your personal gain is much more appealing than the theme of manipulating European countries into war for your personal gain?

The graphics of a bunch of people around a table is much more appealing than a bunch of people around a paper map? The flag tokens are much more appealing than the wooden disks? The smaller bonds are much more appealing than the larger bonds?

These are the only thematic and graphical differences I see.

I don't understand the mindset, I must confess.


The differences might be subtle, but still they were enough for me to have chosen Imperial 2030 over the original and to not regret it at all. The table talk is awesome: mocking countries on an international scale, making references to current real world events (financial crisis, nuclear proliferation,...), placing a flag in neutral regions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k). And the world map always works: "Hey this looks just like risk, I want to try it!". De gustibus non est disputandum.

By the way, in the mean time the game went from rank 195 to 190
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Seems one can argue that Imperial 2030 does not compare to Dominion: Intrigue not only because Imperial 2030 has different rules than Imperial (Dominion:Intrigue does not have different rules than Dominion), but also because, as said above, Intrigue clearly expands the playability of Dominion. Imperial 2030 by itself does not change the Imperial game.

One is marketted as a rework of an older game. The other is marketted as a stand-alone expansion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
pronoblem baalberith
United States
Pleasantville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Is it just me or do my balls itch?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Walter Raleigh1 wrote:
I guess World War 2 was an expansion game of World War 1...


Imperial is a Euro, but if you look at many war games there are 'systems' that get used over and over again to create different games and those games while they might have the same mechanics and a map with the same geography they are not expansions to each other. Can you add For the People to We the People and have Washington fighting alongside R.E. Lee?. Same goes for rail games... is 1856 an expansion to 1830? Yeah, shuffle all the tiles and stocks together and you can play both games at once. Imperial could be somewhat of a system... and 2030 is a different game in that system. Standalone expansion would be an expansion that could be played with or without the base game. Is that the case with 2030?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Young
Canada
Victoria
BC
flag msg tools
Old Ways Are Best!
badge
Check Six!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
pronoblem wrote:
Walter Raleigh1 wrote:
I guess World War 2 was an expansion game of World War 1...


Imperial is a Euro, but if you look at many war games there are 'systems' that get used over and over again to create different games and those games while they might have the same mechanics and a map with the same geography they are not expansions to each other. Can you add For the People to We the People and have Washington fighting alongside R.E. Lee?. Same goes for rail games... is 1856 an expansion to 1830? Yeah, shuffle all the tiles and stocks together and you can play both games at once. Imperial could be somewhat of a system... and 2030 is a different game in that system. Standalone expansion would be an expansion that could be played with or without the base game. Is that the case with 2030?


No - there are too many differences and the components are not "backward compatible." To play the 2030 rules on the original map you would need a kit or make additional components yourself. You could possibly play the Imperial rules on the 2030 map by removing some of the 2030 pieces, but I'm not sure how well it would work. Both are entirely stand-alone games that share many common characteristics. There is no way in the world that 2030 should be thought of as an "expansion"...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Bubslug wrote:
There is no way in the world that 2030 should be thought of as an "expansion"...


Except, of course, for those who bought the "expansion" kit that was only offered at Essen 2009...which just included new bonds and a board/map (and maybe the tax Flags?).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Young
Canada
Victoria
BC
flag msg tools
Old Ways Are Best!
badge
Check Six!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Your "upgrade kit" would have had to contain a set of 2030 rules as well because they are not the same, plus the Swiss Banker chits. If the publisher had marketed what you received it would have indeed been an expansion and would have said so ("must have a copy of Imperial to play this expansion"). It happens that the two games have some common components; in this case, the player markers, factories and units.

They could do the same thing for folks who only have 2030 - offer a set of bonds, tax flags, a map, and a rule set and you now can play Imperial. Does that then make Imperial an expansion of 2030?

Player markers are generic, as are the figs - common to many many games. Everything else in the two games is quite distinct in number, form and function.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Mixemong
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Imperial 2030 is not an expansion, period. Different board, different rules, different game play all make Imperial 2030 a different game. Both are great games but I am sure mac made the bits available only to satisfy original Imperial owners.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Bubslug wrote:
Your "upgrade kit" would have had to contain a set of 2030 rules as well because they are not the same, plus the Swiss Banker chits. If the publisher had marketed what you received it would have indeed been an expansion and would have said so ("must have a copy of Imperial to play this expansion"). It happens that the two games have some common components; in this case, the player markers, factories and units.

They could do the same thing for folks who only have 2030 - offer a set of bonds, tax flags, a map, and a rule set and you now can play Imperial. Does that then make Imperial an expansion of 2030?

Player markers are generic, as are the figs - common to many many games. Everything else in the two games is quite distinct in number, form and function.


Is Railroad Tycoon an expansion of Rails of Europe because you can reverse the pieces process?

Yes, yes, there are two functionally different rules (and the Swiss Bank, which had already been a functional variant of a way to play Imperial - we used the stupid/useless Investor card to mimic the Swiss Bank). Who cares?

The number of ships and land units in each game is equal. Equal. Equal. The only distinct in number quantity is the 9 bonds being included in 2030.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Young
Canada
Victoria
BC
flag msg tools
Old Ways Are Best!
badge
Check Six!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
If Rails of Europe was a stand-alone game, the question would be a legitimate one. It is an expansion and is clearly labelled as such. All you get is a map and a folder explaining how to use it. No comparison.

This is silly. Fortunately, the mods knew what they were doing in this case...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
It was an attempt to point out the inanity of your question.

I really see the "stand-alone" aspect as two-fold:

1.) Not enough people bought Imperial. They didn't want to service only the "already-own" market.

2.) More profit to be had by selling a full game than just the pieces to an expansion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Axel
Austria
Salzburg
Salzburg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
News flash: the game now ranks 184
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Hamrick
United States
Rocky Mount
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Is a younger brother an expansion of an older brother/sister? Both look a lot alike. Both have the same parents. But neither expands the other.

2030 is a game within itself expanding upon the mechanics and concepts of Imperial. As such, it also expands the Imperial family (as a new sibling expands a family); but is not an expansion of the sibling. The sibling is not required for the new addition.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Where will it stop?
Sadly, this is not the most ridiculous conversation I've ever taken part in.

I'm out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick weckermann
Canada
Powell River
British Coumbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Where will it end? Probably ahead of Imperial the original game.
Where does it belong? In with expansions.
Quote:
Sadly, this is not the most ridiculous conversation I've ever taken part in.

I will take over for a bit then eh.
Your points are valid, but not to those that own 2030 as they may be bias.Personally i feel 2030 is on the outer limits of the classification expansion, compared to a lot of other games here that are not yet considered expansions. If this game is considered and expansion, there is a lot of work to be done out here as hundreds of great games would have to be considered expansions, and that is just not going to happen.
The argument here for this game not being an expansion are lame to say the least.
Quote:
Isn't it a complete game in a box, not needing the original Imperial to play?

Quote:
Your "upgrade kit" would have had to contain a set of 2030 rules as well because they are not the same, plus the Swiss Banker chits.

Quote:
there are too many differences and the components are not "backward compatible." To play the 2030 rules on the original map you would need a kit or make additional components yourself.

If i boxed parts with Power grid maps we could call each one a game on its own. The maps are different, the rules are very different, more so then Imperial. This is just one example there a lots out there.Though some of you were trying to make a point that it is not an expansion you have made the point it is an expansion. With power grid the rules for expansion maps do not work with other maps. Yes i have had to make components for Imperial such as the Swiss Banker card(s), one of which should have come with the game originally as intended by the game designer (instead of the blank). Had extra parts come with original game, and rules added as another variant to play as was done with the investor card, there probably would not be a 2030 game, just a map like was done with the Power Grid game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.