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Subject: Memoir or C&C:A? rss

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Sean Shaw
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I've been debating about C&C for awhile, but I always seem to get another game instead of it. I'm also cautious due to combat.

I own Battlecry and Battle lore already. I love Battlecry. It works perfectly.

Battle Lore turned me off a little due to how weak they made archers in comparison to some of the effectiveness they were on the battlefield in some battles (the first scenario of Battlelore is a perfect example, the combination of mud and the longbow slaughtered the french, the heavy infantry were pretty useless overall for the French...UNLIKE how that scenario seem to normally play out in the base game). The expansions fixed longbows to a degree, but in Battle Lore it still bothered me that armor was essentially non-existent. The heavier forces got heavier attacks, but in truth, a sword is a sword is a sword.

I preferred something like Battlemasters of old, where you actually rolled defense dice for units, and in Battle lore this would work nicely to represent armor, with the lighter units rolling fewer armor dice.

It may have worked if they had it so that Heavy's had a LOT more hits required to kill them then a medium unit or such...to a DEFINATE and obvious difference.

Alas, it doesn't exist in Battle Lore and though it's a great game, kind of kills the entire mood and setting for me.

Battlecry really doesn't have armor, and so it's a non-factor. Guns seem to be better rerpresentatives to me of this system.

So here's my hesitation of getting C&C:Ancients. The Armor rules for hand to hand combat really REALLY bug me for Battle Lore.

I don't mind it with the guns since no armor is really taken into effect.

So hence my hesitation on C&C, but then I started thinking about Memoir. Memoir I suppose uses guns just like Battlecry, seeing the period, but then my hesitation is again, with the differences between infantry and tanks. If infantry were a two unit (such as Artillery in Battlecry) and Armor four or five units, I think it would be a nicer thing and I could stomach it. IF they are both 3 and 4 hits, or even the same hits, I think it would bug me the same amount as in Battle Lore and their light vs. Heavy units.

I would like to get into one of them, as I really enjoy Battlecry, and would like something like it in a different period. Battle Lore was kind of a disappointment in that regard.

So I'd like something similar to the combat of Battlecry, but not so like it that it destroys the period it portrays.

C&C appeals to me as well since I do enjoy the battleback rules of Battle Lore (but these are completely offset by the armor) and hear that it's better in C&C, and I also like leader bonuses and Hear they are more in depth in C&C. I also like special units, but if the armor is anything like Battlecry, I think I'd pass.

Hence Memoir.

Which do you think I should choose based on that, or should I get neither one. I'm looking for a big term investment (so in the end all the expansions as well), so I suppose it could be a pretty major decision on which system to go with, as that's the one I'll invest in while the other is ignored.
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Memoir is mostly about the terrain. CCA is all about the units. I have both and are glad about it. Both are awesome.
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John Bandettini
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Personally I like C&C:A best of the lot. But we all have different tastes, so I can't know that you would agree. Still it has the highest rating and lots of great expansions. So surely you can't go wrong with it?
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John O'Haver PhoDOGrapher
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I have all four games and all expansions. I like C&C:A the best and Battle Cry the least. I play Memoir '44 but I use house rules and 1/144 scale Armor to create a broader range of armor units. I bought BattleLore and all the expansions except Heroes in one purchase. I can't get it to the table anymore. My regular gamer guy, who hates the fantasy elements, has played it but says it offers nothing that Ancients doesn't do better.

That said, from what you've written, I not sure you'll like either C&C:A or M '44.
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Kent Reuber
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GreyLord wrote:
It may have worked if they had it so that Heavy's had a LOT more hits required to kill them then a medium unit or such...to a DEFINATE and obvious difference.

Alas, it doesn't exist in Battle Lore and though it's a great game, kind of kills the entire mood and setting for me.

Battlecry really doesn't have armor, and so it's a non-factor. Guns seem to be better rerpresentatives to me of this system.

So here's my hesitation of getting C&C:Ancients. The Armor rules for hand to hand combat really REALLY bug me for Battle Lore.


In that case, I'd say that C&CA isn't a good purchase for you. The battle rules are basically the same as Battle Lore with regard to the heavy/medium/light unit combat. Ranged fire in C&CA is, if anything, weaker than in BattleLore, because ranged fire only extends out to 2-3 hexes. At least, in C&CA, ranged weapon users are treated as skirmishers rather than formed units and have the option of evading with threatened.

GreyLord wrote:
So hence my hesitation on C&C, but then I started thinking about Memoir. Memoir I suppose uses guns just like Battlecry, seeing the period, but then my hesitation is again, with the differences between infantry and tanks. If infantry were a two unit (such as Artillery in Battlecry) and Armor four or five units, I think it would be a nicer thing and I could stomach it. IF they are both 3 and 4 hits, or even the same hits, I think it would bug me the same amount as in Battle Lore and their light vs. Heavy units.

So I'd like something similar to the combat of Battlecry, but not so like it that it destroys the period it portrays.


Memoir is more similar to Battle Cry than the other C&C games, so if you like Battle Cry better than BattleLore, I'd go with Memoir. The dice in Memoir are more similar to BattleCry in that infantry symbols appear twice as often as other types. Since you also hit on grenade symbols (like crossed swords in BattleCry), each dice rolled against infantry will cause a hit 50% of the time. Armor dice symbols appear only once, so hits occur only (again, you hit on grenades) 33% of the time.

One key thing about armor is that, unlike the artillery in BC, the number of dice don't drop off with range. So, the proper way to attack infantry with armor is usually to keep as much distances as possible, unless you're trying for an armor overrun. But, fire from armor is more affected by terrain than infantry fire (in the open at range 3, infantry will hit armor with 1 die, while the armor will hit with 3 dice), so in general, infantry should keep in cover whenever possible. If the infantry is in the woods, both sides will be rolling 1 dice, but, of course, armor will hit twice as often.

Now, if you want a simple game with a World War II flavor, one game I'd recommend is War to Axis: Warfare in Normandy. Like Memoir, this is a relatively big scale game, with units being battalions and companies (unlike other games like Tide of Iron that use squads as the unit). And the mechanics are still very Euro-influenced. One big difference is that you throw different dice when firing at infantry and firing at armor. Armor dice have 3 "light" armor faces, 2 "medium" armor faces, and one "heavy" armor face, so you hit heavy armor much less often. And, unlike Memoir, the armor units aren't generic, and there are specific units anti-tank guns, and half-tracks.
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BrentS
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I'm biased because I love CCA. It would be a shame if you were turned off the game because of that one issue with armour but if it's a deal breaker for you then you're not going to like it. It's all about streamlining and is factored in with how hard the heavies hit and battle back and the fact that in most scenarios they start supported in battle lines which are hard to break. Anyone familiar with the system will tell you that it all just works elegantly for its period and if you try it you may like it, despite your concerns.

My suggestion before diving in is to sample it free on Vassal. Then you can decide if your concerns detract too much from a great game for you to start spending big.

Alternatively (and I hate suggesting this because I don't think the system needs fixing at all and someone's going to jump on me for mentioning it ) you could try a simple variant with your Heavies that may bring the game into line with what you want. "Resistance rolls" add a complexity layer that you don't want in this sort or streamlined game. Chariots and Cataphracted cavalry already have a rule in CCA that they can ignore 1 sword in close combat. Introduce that for your Heavy Infantry and you may find the game you want. It doesn't need it but if it gets you in the door you're in for a fantastic game.

Brent.
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Mark Crane
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SJBenoist wrote:
I like C&C, and am not a fan of Memoir (don't feel the system matches the WWII era even slightly).

That being said, if you buy a new copy of C&C be prepared to spend 3 hours carefully applying stickers to wooden blocks.


Or buy a lightly used, pre-stickered edition!
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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Sean Shaw
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kentreuber wrote:
GreyLord wrote:
It may have worked if they had it so that Heavy's had a LOT more hits required to kill them then a medium unit or such...to a DEFINATE and obvious difference.

Alas, it doesn't exist in Battle Lore and though it's a great game, kind of kills the entire mood and setting for me.

Battlecry really doesn't have armor, and so it's a non-factor. Guns seem to be better rerpresentatives to me of this system.

So here's my hesitation of getting C&C:Ancients. The Armor rules for hand to hand combat really REALLY bug me for Battle Lore.


In that case, I'd say that C&CA isn't a good purchase for you. The battle rules are basically the same as Battle Lore with regard to the heavy/medium/light unit combat. Ranged fire in C&CA is, if anything, weaker than in BattleLore, because ranged fire only extends out to 2-3 hexes. At least, in C&CA, ranged weapon users are treated as skirmishers rather than formed units and have the option of evading with threatened.

GreyLord wrote:
So hence my hesitation on C&C, but then I started thinking about Memoir. Memoir I suppose uses guns just like Battlecry, seeing the period, but then my hesitation is again, with the differences between infantry and tanks. If infantry were a two unit (such as Artillery in Battlecry) and Armor four or five units, I think it would be a nicer thing and I could stomach it. IF they are both 3 and 4 hits, or even the same hits, I think it would bug me the same amount as in Battle Lore and their light vs. Heavy units.

So I'd like something similar to the combat of Battlecry, but not so like it that it destroys the period it portrays.


Memoir is more similar to Battle Cry than the other C&C games, so if you like Battle Cry better than BattleLore, I'd go with Memoir. The dice in Memoir are more similar to BattleCry in that infantry symbols appear twice as often as other types. Since you also hit on grenade symbols (like crossed swords in BattleCry), each dice rolled against infantry will cause a hit 50% of the time. Armor dice symbols appear only once, so hits occur only (again, you hit on grenades) 33% of the time.

One key thing about armor is that, unlike the artillery in BC, the number of dice don't drop off with range. So, the proper way to attack infantry with armor is usually to keep as much distances as possible, unless you're trying for an armor overrun. But, fire from armor is more affected by terrain than infantry fire (in the open at range 3, infantry will hit armor with 1 die, while the armor will hit with 3 dice), so in general, infantry should keep in cover whenever possible. If the infantry is in the woods, both sides will be rolling 1 dice, but, of course, armor will hit twice as often.

Now, if you want a simple game with a World War II flavor, one game I'd recommend is War to Axis: Warfare in Normandy. Like Memoir, this is a relatively big scale game, with units being battalions and companies (unlike other games like Tide of Iron that use squads as the unit). And the mechanics are still very Euro-influenced. One big difference is that you throw different dice when firing at infantry and firing at armor. Armor dice have 3 "light" armor faces, 2 "medium" armor faces, and one "heavy" armor face, so you hit heavy armor much less often. And, unlike Memoir, the armor units aren't generic, and there are specific units anti-tank guns, and half-tracks.


Thanks a ton, that's exactly the type of stuff I was looking for to help me make a decision.
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John O'Haver PhoDOGrapher
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Quote:
Chariots and Cataphracted cavalry already have a rule in CCA that they can ignore 1 sword in close combat.



I think that's a brilliant suggestion. I love C&C:A as is but I can see where that might be a viable level up for heavy infantry. I do play in C&C Ancients Tournaments so I can't see using this tweek in my own games because it won't be used in tournament play. But it might be just the tweek for your purposes.
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gregory duff
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I am 57 years old and own all Memoir expansions, Battle Lore, Battle Cry, & C&C Ancients. I love them all and will play any whenever I find a partner. Our game club is about to begin a C&C Ancients tournament. The battle backs in C&C Ancients ROCK. The game is highly interactive....you don't wait till your turn to battle, but battle back on opponent's turn if in close combat. And wait'll you play the ELEPHANTS and they stampede!!! My Advice: BUY THEM BOTH & buy the C&C Napoleon when it comes out too.

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BrentS
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scribidinus wrote:
Quote:
Chariots and Cataphracted cavalry already have a rule in CCA that they can ignore 1 sword in close combat.



I think that's a brilliant suggestion. I love C&C:A as is but I can see where that might be a viable level up for heavy infantry. I do play in C&C Ancients Tournaments so I can't see using this tweek in my own games because it won't be used in tournament play. But it might be just the tweek for your purposes.


I've also started playing in tournaments with the awesome CCA Vassal community (plug ) and play the game as designed.....although even without the requirement of a common rule set for competition play I'd emphasise again that I don't think there's any need to change the rules.....I think they're just fine as they are.

One of CCA's strongest features is how much complexity has been distilled down to a simple set of rules that play quickly, smoothly and elegantly. Flanking, armour and morale look to be absent from the system, to the horror of many gamers, but they are actually all there, neatly abstracted into the system. Anyone who has tried to make a cavalry charge against a formed phalanx of Greek heavy infantry in this game will know that they're in for punishment when those heavies battle back then battle again on their turn for a 10 dice total, and that the absence of formal armour rules mean nothing......not to mention the horror of those heavies bearing down on you when their mobility is increased by Double Time, Julian Legion rules or Caesar.

However, if there is an absolute need felt to alter the game, then I think avoiding overelaboration would be important if you were to preserve what makes CCA a great game, being its simplicity...."tweaking" is a good term. The colourless sword symbol on the die is a great tool for this, a mechanism used extensively by the designers already to represent greater unit durability by ignoring sword hits (chariots, cataphracted cavalry, elephants, ramparts, fortified camps, the Sacred Band, Alexander's Companion cavalry), unit weakness in close combat by not hitting on swords (lights) and unit strength by "exploding" swords (elephants). The advantage of all of these is that they are incorporated into the original dice roll without need for different rolls and significant extra rules overlay.

This is digressing a bit from the OP's original request but I guess I'm saying there are possible simple "fixes" to make the game appeal to players who might feel uncomfortable with some of its elements....heavies ignoring a sword hit is one of them.

Brent.

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