♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I found some discussion about this and a thread where Eric from DOW said one thing and Bruno Cathala another (if I understood it correctly), but has it definitively been determined whether drawing 2 cards at the Round Table and fighting a siege engine are considered to be two distinct Heroic Actions that can be done together on the same turn? In other words, you could draw 2 cards, burn a life point, and then fight a siege engine? The rulebook says that there are two distinct Heroic Actions associated with Camelot. My understanding is that you can burn a life point to take a second Heroic Action, as long as they are different Heroic Actions. So to my thinking, that should be allowed, since they are different Heroic Actions. But I understand there is some question about that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Geggus
United Kingdom
Brentwood,
Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would certainly say that these are 2 distinctly different actions so, subject to penalty, you can attempt both.
The rules make quite clear the inability to take 2 heroic actions that are the same (see examples in rule book).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Smiles
United States
Dedham
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
admin
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
badge
Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are 5 Heroic Actions:
Move to a new location
Perform a quest specific action
Play a special white card
Heal yourself
Make an accusation

You may not do any of these twice. Doesn't matter if it is your normal heroic action for the turn, your special power, or an additional heroic action you paid a life point for.

You may only perform 1 quest specific action per turn. So no, you could not both draw cards and fight a seige engine.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Korson
United States
Kennewick
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Never trust the brute-force power of a computer network to do the job of a combinatorialist.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ahiksking wrote:
I would certainly say that these are 2 distinctly different actions so, subject to penalty, you can attempt both.
The rules make quite clear the inability to take 2 heroic actions that are the same (see examples in rule book).


I have to disagree.

According to the rules, there are five 'Heroic Actions':
d10-1 Quest Heroic Action
d10-2 Play White Card
d10-3 Discard 3 cards/gain 1 life
d10-4 Accuse a Knight
d10-5 Move to a different quest

The rules also say you can spend a life to perform a different Heroic Action, In your example, you would be doing the Camelot Quest Heroic Action twice. Doesn't matter that you have a choice of things to do; they both are the Quest Heroic Action for Camelot.

It's no different than playing the last card on a quest (Quest Heroic Action), getting a free ride back to Camelot, then spending a life and taking two cards (Quest Heroic Action). Not allowed. I found some references to this some time ago when Lynette did exactly that in a game. All agreed later that this should not have been allowed.



6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's where I think you guys are wrong, or the rules are wrong...

All it says under the sacrifice for an additional Heroic Action is this: You may never perform the same Heroic Action twice in the same turn, the second action must always be a different one.

The only restriction is that you cannot perform the same Heroic Action twice in a turn. The second action must always be a different... Heroic Action. What are "Heroic Actions" defined as? Well, according to the rulebook you're not being inclusive of them all when you list them... those are the different types. The rules clearly describe each different thing as being a different Heroic Action: "Each Quest has one or more Heroic Actions (note the plural of that!) attached to it." "The Heroic Actions specific to each Quest are:" "Camelot has a specific Heroic Action attached to each of its two sections."

Perhaps the rules were too liberal with their use of the term "Heroic Actions", but to me, the rules can clearly be interpreted that Drawing 2 Cards and Fighting Siege Engines are each "Heroic Actions", and are different "Heroic Actions", therefore they are not the same "Heroic Actions" and can both be done in a turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Sauberer
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Grudunza wrote:
Here's where I think you guys are wrong, or the rules are wrong...

All it says under the sacrifice for an additional Heroic Action is this: You may never perform the same Heroic Action twice in the same turn, the second action must always be a different one.

The only restriction is that you cannot perform the same Heroic Action twice in a turn. The second action must always be a different... Heroic Action. What are "Heroic Actions" defined as? Well, according to the rulebook you're not being inclusive of them all when you list them... those are the different types. The rules clearly describe each different thing as being a different Heroic Action: "Each Quest has one or more Heroic Actions (note the plural of that!) attached to it." "The Heroic Actions specific to each Quest are:" "Camelot has a specific Heroic Action attached to each of its two sections."

Perhaps the rules were too liberal with their use of the term "Heroic Actions", but to me, the rules can clearly be interpreted that Drawing 2 Cards and Fighting Siege Engines are each "Heroic Actions", and are different "Heroic Actions", therefore they are not the same "Heroic Actions" and can both be done in a turn.


So then could you also, in the same turn

- play two different white cards?
- move to two different quests?
- accuse two different knights?

I don't think this would be allowable, (the accusation one making life far too easy for a traitor, especailly) so doing two different quest specific actions also are not allowed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Korson
United States
Kennewick
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Never trust the brute-force power of a computer network to do the job of a combinatorialist.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you're trying too hard to read between the lines. On the player cards, and in the rules, it lists five heroic actions. One of them is Quest Heroic Action. Doing two Quest Heroic Actions is against the rules.

If they intended for you to be able to do more than one Quest Heroic Action in the same turn, they would have said "spend a life to perform another different Quest Heroic Action". But that's not what it says.

When you perofrm two different Quest Heroic Actions, you are performing the SAME Heroic Action twice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Korson
United States
Kennewick
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Never trust the brute-force power of a computer network to do the job of a combinatorialist.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If it helps, here's what it says in the official FAQ on the Days of Wonder site.

The very first entry in the FAQ deals with this exact issue:
Quote:
A Knight may only do multiple actions during his turn if each of these actions is of a DIFFERENT nature.

For memory, the 5 possible action types are:
Moving to a new place
Performing a Quest-specific action
Playing a Special White card
Healing yourself
Accusing another Knight of being the Traitor.

example:
It is Sir Tristan's turn, and he is on the Black Knight Quest.
He plays the last Fight card required to end the Quest (action of type B). He thus automatically returns to Camelot at no cost. This move does not count as an action, since it was automatically triggered by the completion of the Quest.
Once in Camelot, Tristan will neither be able to draw White cards nor fight the Siege Engines, if he chooses to perform a second Heroic Action. This is because this would be a second Quest-specific (Action of type B) action!
On the other hand, he could immediately move to another new Quest (because he hasn't chosen a Move action (Action of type A.) yet. Furthermore, this move will be free for him (because that move is his Special power).
Once there, he could also Heal himself (D), Play a Special White card (C) or accuse a fellow Knight (E), by sacrificing a Life Point to perform this second Heroic Action.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Minkoff
United States
Henrico
Virginia
flag msg tools
Dum, Dum, Dum dum dum, Dum!
badge
"Money isn't everything, but it's a tie-breaker in Power Grid!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AGKorson wrote:
I think you're trying too hard to read between the lines. On the player cards, and in the rules, it lists five heroic actions. One of them is Quest Heroic Action. Doing two Quest Heroic Actions is against the rules.

If they intended for you to be able to do more than one Quest Heroic Action in the same turn, they would have said "spend a life to perform another different Quest Heroic Action". But that's not what it says.

When you perofrm two different Quest Heroic Actions, you are performing the SAME Heroic Action twice.


100% Agreement with the above, FWIW.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm happy to accept that as the answer, however the original rules are wrong, then, or were not specific enough. As I showed, the restriction indicated only mentions not doing the same "Heroic Action", and the rules also list "Heroic Actions" as being each of the different specific things. There is no distinction made of "Quest specific Heroic Actions" and "Heroic Actions". When it says, and this is right from the rulebook... "Each Quest has one or more Heroic Actions attached to it" and "The Heroic Actions specific to each Quest are:" and "Camelot has a specific Heroic Action attached to each of its two sections", why wouldn't you think that those are indeed also considered "Heroic Actions"? That's exactly what it says they are. In other words, the list of five Heroic Actions that you're referring to doesn't negate the specific Heroic Actions included therein as also being "Heroic Actions" if that's how they are also described.

Again, this is all the sacrifice restriction says: You may never perform the same Heroic Action twice in the same turn, the second action must always be a different one.

Quote:
So then could you also, in the same turn

- play two different white cards?
- move to two different quests?
- accuse two different knights?

I don't think this would be allowable, (the accusation one making life far too easy for a traitor, especailly) so doing two different quest specific actions also are not allowed.


Well, no because that would be doing the same thing twice. But if each Heroic Action of the quest type is described as being a "Heroic Action", then they are different inasmuch as they are different things; drawing 2 white cards is a different thing than fighting a siege engine. They are described as being "Heroic Actions" distinct from each other, and that is the only restriction listed in the rules.

I'm not disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing here... You're probably right that that was the intention, but if so, the rulebook is too vague in that the restriction does not specifically preclude doing different "Heroic Actions", as they are otherwise described several times.

Here's an example of what I mean...

You can only do one of five Special Things today:
1: Watch "Judge Judy"
2: Play Settlers of Catan
3: Read something
4: Take a nap
5: Eat some pizza

Note how everything is specific except for #3 (read something).

If you are willing to pay me $50, you can do an additional Special Thing, but you can't do the same Special Thing twice.

Now what if I also told you several times prior that...

Reading Watership Down is a Special Thing.
Reading the newspaper is a Special Thing.
Reading Hop On Pop is a Special Thing.
Reading a blog is a Special Thing.
Reading a rules question thread on BGG is a Special Thing.
etc.

Do you see what I mean? That's exactly what the rulebook does in repeatedly describing the individual quest actions as "Heroic Actions", and then only saying that you can't do the same "Heroic Action" twice in a turn. There should be no reason to think that you can't do more than one of those "Heroic Actions" in a turn, because they are indeed described as different "Heroic Actions".

And the FAQ, if I'm remembering correctly, was contradicted elsewhere by Bruno Cathala, which is why I brought this up again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Korson
United States
Kennewick
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Never trust the brute-force power of a computer network to do the job of a combinatorialist.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I totally don't get your example, because I would say that per your rules, I would NOT be allowed to read Watership Down AND the newspaper, because you just said that I can't do the same special thing. And you said that reading 'something' is a special thing.

As far as your clarifications, of course reading Watership Down is a special thing, because Watership Down is 'something'. And reading the newspaper is a special thing because the newspaper is 'something'. etc.

But your rules are clearly stated: Reading something is a special thing, and for $50 I can do second special thing as long as it's NOT one that I already did.

You're trying way too hard to create a rules confusion where one just doesn't exit, IMHO.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Korson
United States
Kennewick
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Never trust the brute-force power of a computer network to do the job of a combinatorialist.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PS: And no, I am NOT going to pay you $50 to read the newspaper when I get home, just because I already took a nap today at work! laugh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AGKorson wrote:
I totally don't get your example, because I would say that per your rules, I would NOT be allowed to read Watership Down AND the newspaper, because you just said that I can't do the same special thing. And you said that reading 'something' is a special thing.

As far as your clarifications, of course reading Watership Down is a special thing, because Watership Down is 'something'. And reading the newspaper is a special thing because the newspaper is 'something'. etc.

But your rules are clearly stated: Reading something is a special thing, and for $50 I can do second special thing as long as it's NOT one that I already did.

You're trying way too hard to create a rules confusion where one just doesn't exit, IMHO.


Okay, that actually makes sense now. I had to create that example not to show you, but so that you could show me.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.