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Subject: How counteract USSR coup vs. Italy during 1st round on 1st Turn. rss

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Mauro Fiorelli
Italy
Milan
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Assuming that US player put his starting influence point for Europe in W.Germany (4pts) and taly (3pts) and he haven't played "Marshall Plan" or "Duck and Cover" or "CIA" card in Headline phase (didn't have any).

Here it is what generally happen in our standard match:

- USSR player makes a coup vs. Italy playing a card of "4" ops point or the China Card.So it means that for USSR there's more than 50% chance to remove all US influence (from 3 to 6 roll). In this case, US player has no possibility to put other influence in Italy because he spent all his starting influence points for W.Germany (4) and just for Italy (3) neither to make a countercoup 'cause Defcon lowered to 4.

Any hints?

Thanks, Mauro
 
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Tim Schwarz
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Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Ben Delp
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Talltim wrote:
Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Indeed. If my USSR opponent used the China Card on the first phase to coup Italy, I'd be feeling pretty good about my chances of winning the game. Not a wise use of resources at all.
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Carlos Ferreira
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If I you think your opponent will do that why do you do it the other way.

Put 3 on West Germany and 4 on Italy. with 4 on Italy he will need to take a 6 to control Italy and 4 just to take you out of there. Will he try?

You will not have control of West Germany so maybe he will just put influence there. Only do this if you have a hand with a lot of Ops.

If you have Red Scare/Purge headline it
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Matt Davis
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One thing that helps with this is the US has several "Western European" countries that have a stability of 2. So Marshall plan for example can get you halfway to controlling Greece, Turkey, and Spain/Portugal. The helpful USSR cards in Europe typically apply to Eastern Europe, which are harder countries to take. So it's not bad to hold off a USSR domination of Europe with non-battlegrounds.
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Gordon Stewart
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And you could start w/Italy empty to avoid a European coup;
(not advised)
If you play w/the US autobid of +3, it is standard to have:
ITALY w/4, Greece w/1 (to reload Italy from), and IRAN w/2. IMHO
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Daniel Corban
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Italy? I always go for Iran as USSR.
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andre Heller
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delp1871 wrote:
Talltim wrote:
Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Indeed. If my USSR opponent used the China Card on the first phase to coup Italy, I'd be feeling pretty good about my chances of winning the game. Not a wise use of resources at all.


In games I use the chinacard for a coup in italy and take it over, it was a wise use of resources:-)
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nicola caroli
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You mean "in games where i roll 6s for coups"
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First Last
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I usually avoid putting any influence into Italy off the start unless I've got Marshal Plan. I've always figured that it's better to control non-battleground countries to deny the USSR dominance than it is to sink points into Italy. In most games I've played, Defcon stays pretty low, so it's usually a one-time issue.

If I have Marshal Plan, I'll usually put 1 IP into Canada, Spain, Greece, & Turkey. The rest gets put into West Germany usually, depending on the status of Blockade.
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Sean Whittaker
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As far as I know you can't put multiple points from Marshall Plan into one battleground. It's seven 1pt amounts in seven different battlegrounds. Of course, I could be mistaken...
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Russ Hewson
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godeater wrote:
It's seven 1pt amounts in seven different countries. Of course, I could be mistaken...


Apart from the typo you are not mistaken sir.

(of course they have to be Western European and non-USSR controlled too, but that's the severe pedant in me coming out)
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Riku Riekkinen
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Now, I've started a number of games with 1Benelux, 1SP/PO, 4IT, 1GR setup as USA. And there are still a LOT of people who see that as an easy Europe control with Social Governments. The thing is that, if USSR is having a great hand they shouldn't be looking the hardest target on the map = Italy 2 overcontrol, 2 adjanced countries to help in hard cases. In fact that is how I've beaten very well peformed tourney player with normal (before deluxe) edition USA.

The point being USSR shouldn't go after the hardest target at first... and it takes a LOT to control Europe. I assume your games haven't ended in the control of Europe autowin regardless of the Italy coup?
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edward kung
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Talltim wrote:
Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Pardon my noobishness, but couldn't USSR then simply coup Pakistan? The USSR then has Italy, Pakistan, access to India, and Asia is protected from coups and realignments. Even if the U.S. gets Thailand, they are still behind in Asia. As the USSR, I could also try to get South Korea early because the US will be afraid to play there before Korean War is resolved. With N.K., S.K., India and Pakistan, USSR has a good chance to dominate Asia for most of the game. Moreover, USSR now has Italy and a good chance to dominate Europe as well! Control of Iran and Afghanistan does not seem to be a good trade in return.





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Riku Riekkinen
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edwardocracy wrote:
Talltim wrote:
Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Pardon my noobishness, but couldn't USSR then simply coup Pakistan? The USSR then has Italy, Pakistan, access to India, and Asia is protected from coups and realignments. Even if the U.S. gets Thailand, they are still behind in Asia. As the USSR, I could also try to get South Korea early because the US will be afraid to play there before Korean War is resolved. With N.K., S.K., India and Pakistan, USSR has a good chance to dominate Asia for most of the game. Moreover, USSR now has Italy and a good chance to dominate Europe as well! Control of Iran and Afghanistan does not seem to be a good trade in return.


Yes, it could coup Pakistan. I usually go for Afganistan and Malaysia as I don't want to risk Pakistan (Unless I have Pakistan-India War). However coup in 2 stability country isn't efficient OPs wise and at the start there are many routes to go even with blocked Pakistan (and Italy).
 
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John DiMaggio
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edwardocracy wrote:
Talltim wrote:
Place influence in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. After a coup in Asia, beat the USSR to Thailand. Dominate Asia.

Meanwhile, take lots of small non-battlegrounds in Europe to prevent USSR domination of Europe.

There aren't that many 4 Ops cards in the deck, so the Italian coup is a significant investment of Soviet resources. Also, I would trade Italy for the China Card every day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Pardon my noobishness, but couldn't USSR then simply coup Pakistan? The USSR then has Italy, Pakistan, access to India, and Asia is protected from coups and realignments. Even if the U.S. gets Thailand, they are still behind in Asia. As the USSR, I could also try to get South Korea early because the US will be afraid to play there before Korean War is resolved. With N.K., S.K., India and Pakistan, USSR has a good chance to dominate Asia for most of the game. Moreover, USSR now has Italy and a good chance to dominate Europe as well! Control of Iran and Afghanistan does not seem to be a good trade in return.








I'm gonna bump this post as this just happened today to me in a game. Just to set up the scenario. We were playing Chinese Civil War Variant with optional cards. He placed 3 ops in poland, 3 in finland. My hand is: (socialist gov, blockade, degaulle leads france, destalinization, capt. nazi scientist, korean war, romanian abdiction, naser).

He headlined Vietnam revolts, I headlined capt. nazi scientist.

My opponent coup'd Italy with a 4 op's card (red scare), rolled a 5 and got control. I responded, perhaps foolishly, by expanding into afghan, pakistan, and iran w/ degaule. He then coup'd pakistan w/ a 3 ops I believe and rolled a 5 to gain control of Pakistan. At this point it was looking grim in both asia and Europe. I did manage to take S. korea by playing korean war and it failing, but lost the race to thailand due to vietnam revolts.

In retrospect, I think I should have coup'd vietnam instead of expanding out of Iran into pakistan and afgan. Going into Pakistan feels like a mistake with the Defcon at 4 as it gives Russia 3 things:

1. Access to all of West Asia
2. Lowers Defcon.
3. Denies any coup. target for the US!


Round 2 was not a good hand for the US: Mid. east, Asia, Europe scoring, Norad, Special Relationship, Fidel, 5 year plan, warsaw pact). Headlines were mid east scoring by USA and cambridge five by Russia. Mid east. was a wash but cambridge basically gave russia knowledge of both cards and was dominating in both regions. I scored asia and europe, russia taking both, gaining domination in both.

In short, the game ended beginning of round 3 with Russia headlining asia scoring, backed by 1st round Europe scoring after having scored both during round 2 (by the USA).

In retrospect, I feel I should have coup'd vietnam first round and NOT have expanded into Pakistan, this feels like a mistake to me. However, provided there was no influence in vietnam, how do people handle a successful Italy coup as this feels like it can easily snowball into an early war Russian win if europe AND asia go russia's way?

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Riku Riekkinen
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JohnnyD144 wrote:
Sad story, but quite good session report.


Now that had all quick USSR win elements there. No 4OPs in 2 hands for US (means USSR probably has a lot). 3 scoring cards in 2nd turn. 2nd turn is in my opinion worse turn to draw a plenty of scorings (especilly after a poor 1st round) since opponent has already had time to grab countries. In first turn its easier to dump them. Good USSR coup rolls is obviously bad also. Then what makes games quick is that scorings come again turn 3. If they get buried in the deck, US has a fighting chance in 3rd world (& evening a bit in the earlier regions). All in all there would have had to be hugely better US player than USSR here to cope (in fact USSR would have had to be a noob really). I don't usually blaim luck for results, but sometimes it just happens so (here you have a good case). My advice is not to look too deeply in this game as assuming always the worst will probably just weaken your game.

Now couping Vietnam has a disadvantage that USSR can coup back with +1OPs. I see it as decent idea, but can lead to bigger OPs deficit.
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John DiMaggio
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Thanks, Riku, that makes my pride feel a little better . I'm hoping to have a rematch soon and perhaps it won't be nearly that bad. I did find out, however, that the game mentioned above had a few early war cards missing from the deck which may have explained a few things (i.e. CIA created, Duck and Cover, Indo-Pakistani War, Defectors, and Suez Crisis).

Despite the missing cards mentioned, do you still think its a good idea to expand into Pakistan/Afghanistan when a USSR opponent coup's Italy? It seems like it just entices them to coup Pakistan? Aftewards, the best the US can hope for is a wash in Europe/Asia holding onto small Europe countries and SE asia? Perhaps gaining the upperhand in the mideast with control of Iran but even then Russia will most likely snatch it with round 1 coups? I dunno, just unsure of expanding into coup-able battlegrounds in round 1 now!
 
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