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Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943» Forums » General

Subject: Question about Game order rss

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Aaron Gelb
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I realize that with the release of Storms of Steel, it improved, changed and/or clarified some rules that Awakening the Bear had.

Now, is it beneficial to play these games in the order they've been released, or would ordering with Storms of Steel first be alright, from both a rules and a gameplay standpoint?

thanks!
 
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David desJardins
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I think you would probably have a better experience with Storms of Steel first, if you play the first game then you have to either play with the old rules, or adapt the new rules which are certainly playable but will probably affect the balance of some scenarios. I can't think of any particular reason to prefer the first game.
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Aaron Gelb
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good to know..thanks for the info!

Do you know why they changed the rules in the first place?
 
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David desJardins
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asgelb wrote:
Do you know why they changed the rules in the first place?


I would say mostly that experience with the game system led to some (minor but significant) improvements.
 
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David desJardins
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kaufschtick wrote:
This comment speaks volumes about AtB being nothing more than a beta test game. shake


This comment speaks volumes about Kaufschtick being nothing more than a whiner.

You'll have a hard time finding any game on BGG where the designer didn't learn more about how he could have made the game better after it was published.

If you want to prevent the publication of any game that could subsequently be improved, not only would you not have any of those games, but you wouldn't have any of the improvements, either, because to get the improvements you have to publish the game and get people to play it and learn from what they experience, which is, duh, the whole point.

If it really bothers you to buy a game when the designer subsequently learns from experience, I think you're really going to have to limit yourself to games by dead people. At least then you're safe.
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David desJardins
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kaufschtick wrote:
What bothers me is that when I was given the sales pitch by Uwe at Origins back in 08, he went on about how the game had been play tested for three years, and was so fine tuned that it was the first of a series of games.


I don't see why that bothers you. It seems entirely true.

The rest of your series of personal attacks violates the forum rules.
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Sigurdur Gunnarsson
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I almost think the 1st edition of AtB should be pulled off the market. People who check this forum all get the same response, "SoS is better...etc". My LGS made the mistake of ordering a copy of AtB before Christmas to see if there was any interest in the series. They probably chose the first title because it´s ranked higher on this site and has more ratings. To make a long story short it´s still sitting on the shelf. I would offer to demo the game for them, but I have no interest in helping them sell somebody not-knowing an "outdated" game.
 
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David desJardins
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ISOisNo1 wrote:
I have no interest in helping them sell somebody not-knowing an "outdated" game.


Doesn't make much sense to me. First, you can play it with the new rules if you want. Secondly, isn't what matters whether it's a good game that people like to play, not whether it's better or worse than some other game? Should the game store refuse to sell any game if there's a game with similar mechanics and a higher BGG rating?
 
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Sigurdur Gunnarsson
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DaviddesJ wrote:
ISOisNo1 wrote:
I have no interest in helping them sell somebody not-knowing an "outdated" game.


Doesn't make much sense to me. First, you can play it with the new rules if you want. Secondly, isn't what matters whether it's a good game that people like to play, not whether it's better or worse than some other game? Should the game store refuse to sell any game if there's a game with similar mechanics and a higher BGG rating?


These games cost an arm and a leg here and I don´t want to sell someone an expensive game only to have them go to this forum to realize they would have been better off ordering SoS online.

 
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Kai von der Aa
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I think certainly both games have high potential. Before SoS came to market, most people were very enthusiastic and liked the game very much. And now with part two of the series and with all the comparing of both titles it's only a matter of "good" or "bad"???

AtB is still a very good game. The scenarios and "feeling" of the game are quite different to SoS. For AtB you can also use the old (also rated "good" rules) with a more "Tide of Iron" feeling or the new rules with the "I go you go" scheme. Both offers a fun time.

I can hardly understand why some people can't say "I like one game more than the other" but instead say "drop the one, worshop the other".

For every title of the series people will have their favorites. The rule changes from AtB to SoS will divide AtB from SoS more than the following games from SoS, but AtB is still a very good game.
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Aaron Gelb
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Wow! Who knew my one lil' question would turn into such a fiasco! shake

 
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Matthew M
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Admin note:

As a general reminder, users are always expected to express themselves in a courteous and respectful way. BGG policy is to issue a warning on a first offense and to follow future offenses with temporary posting suspensions of increasing length. Rather than responding to content that you find offensive, please consider flagging any offending posts as violations by using the icon. This serves two functions - first, if enough users flag a post then it will be collapsed from general view. Second, flagging posts helps bring them to the attention of the forum moderators.

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Thanks!
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uwe eickert
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Hi guys, thanks for all of the support. I would like to add a few comments on why gamers should feel confident in purchasing AtB.

AtB is a great game and stands on its own merrits. The version 2 rules changes encompase only 2 or 3 paragraphs, 98% of the game is still the same. I made the changes because I felt that they streamlined the game flow. I think that it would be a shame not to play AtB because of such minor changes, since some of my favorite firefights and gaming experiences are in AtB. Once you know the v1 rules, it takes 30 seconds to teach and start playing the v2 rules. The v2 rules are also posted on our website for free, along with a 1 page summary of the changes.

I decided to offer new counters, because many people like continuity. Is it necessary to have these counters? By no means. As a matter of fact, only some of the foot units will need to have the blue fire power value added to them. If you can divide and round down, you don't need these updated counters. But I am going through the effort of printing them as an added customer service. I will also be posting the counters online for free.

For gamers new to the system who do not know which game to buy, rest assured that you can not go wrong with either game. AtB won the most awards of any historical board game last year. It is one of the best selling games and still sells very well. With the v2 rules, I just added some chocolate chips to the vanilla ice cream. Best of all, both games can be played with either version of the rules.

I hope that this helps. Our team put a lot of effort into AtB to offer gamers a fun, tense and exciting playing experience. I am confident that you will spend many enjoyable hours playing it.

I wish everyone a great week and weekend.
Uwe
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uwe eickert
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I also wanted to add that I appreciate kaufschtick's and others comments and concerns. These discussions help propel a game forward and also help keep a company on its toes. (Now I am just waiting for an idea to come from one of these conversations that make us revise the rules again! LOL).

So thanks again to everyone for keeping this discussion civil. Also remember that everyone is voicing their opinions not out of maliciousness, but because they want a great game. And no matter where we stand, I think that we can all agree on that.
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Helmut Apel
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I fully agree to David and Kai, there´s nothing wrong in improving something already good even further, i appreciate that and it´s just what i would expect from an ambitious Designer.
And it´s always nice to read Uwes humourous and diplomatic communication with the Fans here. thumbsup
 
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Aaron, in an effort to pull this overheated discussion into a new direction and to support Uwe's support of AtB as the starter game for you, I have a few points to add:

First, the choice of the starting gamebox in my opinion depends pretty much on what kind of (war)gamer you are. If you play just for having a good time, I would recommend SoS, since it has the newest components and last generation rules (plus "bigger guns" since it is later in the Eastern Theatre of WW2). If you play also to experience a historical simulation and are ready to take a few minor efforts for it, then I would recommend AtB, since this will show you (if you compare later with SoS) how small arms tactics evolved in a chronological order. This is what many players describe as how both games "feel" somewhat different. If you are the collector type of player, then AtB is a must anyway. I heard rumors that there is a campaign scenario book or scenario collection in development which is said to use components from both game boxes, but this is unconfirmed yet.

In my personal case I must say that my gaming partner and I have decided to leave SoS on the shelf and suck out everything AtB has to offer before switching to the next game, just because we both enjoy the AtB firefights so much and we like to give them several runs switching sides and trying out different approaches before moving on to the next scenario.

I do not give the rulesets discussion such a big importance anymore. Like Uwe said, those are minor changes and they can be implemented pretty quickly (plus, there are some documents online that point out the changes and help to transfer from one to the other ruleset quickly). If your concerns about SoS-style counters are really the problem for you, you could chose to contact Uwe and try to work out an individual solution with the updated AtB counters coming soon.

Second, if you are the very careful type of game buyer, I would recommend to either a) contact gamers in the area where you live and make a test gaming night or b) download the ZunTzu module from the Academy Games website and try it out before buying (the SoS module will be available soon). Of course playing online can not replace a "real" game session with real games, but in your case it shall give you a good chance to compare AtB to SoS before buying. The rules for both games are also downloadable, so you have the chance to compare every component before buying. This will be better than any recommendation you will find here, since everybody has different preferences.
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Jamieson Teo
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I have both and simply use the new rules as they come out. Either one that you buy, you can get the updated rules from the website. Its always good to see game designers constantly adapting and listening to feedback. I especially appreciate Uwe's engagement with us and a positive attitude towards opinions and criticism.

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Aaron Gelb
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Thanks! I did buy Storms of Steel, and am learning it now.

I had once looked at the components of AtB, and it seems like the rule book for SoS is much bigger, full of more rules, etc. Wasn't the AtB rule book more like a pamphlet? Is this true, or is a lot of it fluff?

Is SoS a much more complex game with a bigger rule book, or is it just the new format that gives you more info?

thanks!
 
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Spacegras
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I downloaded both rules sets and there really isn't much difference in either book if I remember correctly, The only added section I think is the Plane rules that were added for SOS and the explanation of the Balka terrain addition. AtB book was 17 pages and SoS was 20. really not that much more.

When I was thinking about buying this game system, I was really only looking at AtB, but then talk of the future titles being looked at, SoS was one of them still in the pipe. I figured that if I bought one and it was ok, fine, but if I really liked it and wanted to keep going with the series, I'll start at the updated title, then see where that went.

Now that I have SoS and I really like it, I'll be a customer for at least some of the upcoming titles. I still would like AtB, but I'm going to wait to see about the updated counters.
But just because the counters are being redone, will it guarantee me buying it? Not neccesarily. If pick up AtB, will I buy the updated counter sheet, probably, but it's not a definite.
Like I said, I really like this game, but I'm by no means a completionist. I'll buy titles as availability, topic interest, and funding (well, permission to buy) dictates.

I don't think the counter revision and slight rule changes killed AtB. It is still a loved game, in and of itself. Honestly, how many scenarios, in print and to be printed, require mixing of the games. Play AtB for AtB. Play SoS for SoS. And be happy that you can mix the two if you want to.
I'm not trying to rekindle an argument here. I just really like this game, I like where it's coming from and where it's heading.
Chris
 
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James Palmer
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asgelb wrote:
Thanks! I did buy Storms of Steel, and am learning it now.

I had once looked at the components of AtB, and it seems like the rule book for SoS is much bigger, full of more rules, etc. Wasn't the AtB rule book more like a pamphlet? Is this true, or is a lot of it fluff?

Is SoS a much more complex game with a bigger rule book, or is it just the new format that gives you more info?

thanks!


The AtB rule book was more like a kite than a pamphlet. The pages were larger, so there were fewer of them. The SoS rules are really not much longer - maybe a page. You won't have any trouble with them, compared to AtB's rules.
 
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Aaron Gelb
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great, thanks guys! I'm definitely happy with the game! Its beautiful and plays so well!

I may one day get AtB, but for now i'll be looking forward.

I would love to see this game evolve in the way that we would see the same game play but in the pacific front!

I'd also love to see this done in the Vietnam War era!!!
 
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Kai von der Aa
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asgelb wrote:
I would love to see this game evolve in the way that we would see the same game play but in the pacific front!

Your wishes will come true. As Uwe respond to some comments about the new box cover painting for "First Men In":

uweeickert wrote:
The Guadacanal cover is really turning out well also.

 
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