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So what got me thinking about this whole subject is the thread about poverty and whether it's a good thing for the government to provide "poor" people with rent money, money for power bills and heat and several hundred bucks a month in free food while the family still has the wherewithal to buy nice TV's, get cell phones for the kids and dress everyone in the ugly, yet stylish, clothing that has become a pox on humanity.

Then I saw this article about grinding, which is the ridiculous cock-teasing style of dancing that many teens seem to enjoy.

It's my personal belief that the shift towards government dependency and the sense of entitlement that many people now have is due in large part to the ideology hammered into freshman college students by their self-serving and evil professors and instructors. Apologies in advance to any of you college professors who aren't self-serving, evil liberals hell-bent on destroying the fabric of society and fomenting a cultural revolution that will ultimately bring the entire structure of civilization down around our knees. If you are one of those liberal professors, then all I have to say is fuck you... I hope they burn your house first... asshole.

My personal belief is that this whole "grinding" thing needs to be ended. At least until the people who do it are at the age of consent. There is no point to it except either as a prelude to teen sex or just to cock-tease young high school boys. And if any of you recall being a young high school boy then you will recall that few things were more frustrating than being teased.

In addition to my belief that such activities destroy one's dignity and actually make teen girls targets for rape or, at the very least, sex under pressure before they are emotionally ready for it, I also find it pretty amazing that girls like it. Well, some don't. The article I linked points that out. This grinding thing is like the pouty-face self portrait that adorns several million Facebook and MySpace pages. On the right girl, in the right context, it has merit. The problem is that millions upon millions of teen, and even adult females, do the pouty-face photo with their cell phone and after a while they all look the same. Teen girls in tight jeans swaying their asses as they grind their pubes into the pelvis of some over-heated moron with zits, a beanie cap and a boner is not particularly sexy. Nor dignified. Unless you're a zit-faced, moronic 16 year old boy with a boner and a buzz from a few tokes of smoke you snuck from your dad's secret stash. If that's you then I figure anything with a crevice and a heartbeat is probably hot.

How did this happen to us? That's rhetorical... I know how it happened. I watched it happen. It was you fucking oily college professors and your friends who became lawyers who are hell-bent on destroying the very fabric of our society. The limit is close to being reached in my view. Our society here in America is still a swinging pendulum that has energy... unlike Europe which is more like a pendulum that stopped swinging and is now just... sort of... you know.... hanging there.

I sense that the last 40 years of being forced into drifting towards excess, entitlement and the greedy, abusive destruction of common decency and good manners, our cultural pendulum is going to start swinging back in the direction of parents who give a shit, lawyers who fight against the insanity of the ACLU and the hordes of liberal intellgensia who want nothing less than the destruction and then transformation of America into something they envisioned in Poly Sci when their professor turned them onto some really good dope.

Maybe it's just a generational thing... me being of the Baby Boomer generation... but I don't need to see teen girls grinding away and damn near getting laid in public to understand that young women are sexy. In fact, the whole grinding thing, along with the style of clothing, is more a turn-off than a turn-on. When I was a teen I enjoyed the process of chasing tail. I liked the "envisioning" and the parts and pieces of romancing a nubile young thing. The school dance was part of it as well as the formal dating and the steady attack, sometimes over months, that might, maybe, possibly lead to getting a home run.

When I see this stuff going on it seems crass and ugly to me. There is no respect in it. It's all, "Lookie! I have tits and a hoohah! Here! Let me rub them on your dick!"

How can that turn out well? How does that help develop young people into young adults who have some degree of respect for each other? If you have daughters and attended a school dance and saw your little girl doing the equivalent of a Vegas pole dance on the erect member of a greasy-skinned, drooling fuckwit's boner, would you smile benignly and say to your fellow parents, "Aren't they cute? They're growing up so fast."

I am curious about what some of you think about this. Actually, I don't much care what you think if you don't have children, especially daughters. But if you do have daughters and you think simulated sex, probably with dry-hump orgasms, on the gymnasium floor in front of several hundred other kids, parents and teachers (some of who may be men who might not mind a closer peek at your little girl after seeing her moves)... then I'm curious how this practice is considered okay. And also, if it's not okay by you, would you be willing to take on your local school system to bring it to an end?
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Cue Kevin Bacon and Footloose......!!!


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Yup, like rock'n'roll, back in the days. It's all lib conspiracies, I saw it on Fox News.
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chiddler wrote:


Like most people on this website, i'm raising my kids to be nerds. The idea of dancing and fashionable clothing should be anathema to them.


There's something to be said for that... if indeed, you are serious. Nerds aren't really all nerds anymore, at least not in the sense of "Revenge of the Nerds". No doubt there are plenty of those nerds still around and probably more than average here, but there is a growing nerdiness that is cooler than grinding some ditzy chick on the dance floor. When I've had the occasion to talk with some of the high school aged boys who danced that way they were almost universally brain-damaged and most seemed to have a vacant stare and poor communication skills.

I offer up an image of my nerd son and his wife as at least partial evidence that being a tech geek and hopeless nerd doesn't always mean you end up living a life of quiet desperation:




I mean really... how many of you people have a Golden Keyboard?
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Tripp - you are now the official contender for the 2010 "Kids These Days" award, a prestigious honour ever since Plato was bitching about the moral-less youth of Athens in "Laws" cca 350BC.

Ofcourse you think "chasing tail" was more involved, interesting and stimulating in your time. For one it was you doing the chasing and secondly, you understood all the social intricacies of the interaction. For someone looking from outside your amorous adventures were every bit as crude as how you see the ones of today.

Sexuality will always be at the core of the teenage social world, our biology makes sure of that, and this social world will always be somewhat opaque to the uninitiated. I can not say for sure but I would be very much willing to bet that the social and emotional hoops guy has to jump through today to get ahead with the girl are no less complicated then they ever were.

Only thing that ever changed was that pill and condoms made actual intercourse a little less dangerous and therefore somewhat more likely to happen.

I am all with you with regard to the culture of dependancy (it sucks) and nutty liberal college art professors (they *are* the enemies of civilization as we know it) but kids are just kids doing the kid thing just as they did in Athens 2500 years ago and just as they will on our Alpha Centauri colonies 2500 years hence.



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bramadan wrote:
Tripp - you are now the official contender for the 2010 "Kids These Days" award, a prestigious honour ever since Plato was bitching about the moral-less youth of Athens in "Laws" cca 350BC.

Ofcourse you think "chasing tail" was more involved, interesting and stimulating in your time. For one it was you doing the chasing and secondly, you understood all the social intricacies of the interaction. For someone looking from outside your amorous adventures were every bit as crude as how you see the ones of today.

Sexuality will always be at the core of the teenage social world, our biology makes sure of that, and this social world will always be somewhat opaque to the uninitiated. I can not say for sure but I would be very much willing to bet that the social and emotional hoops guy has to jump through today to get ahead with the girl are no less complicated then they ever were.

Only thing that ever changed was that pill and condoms made actual intercourse a little less dangerous and therefore somewhat more likely to happen.

I am all with you with regard to the culture of dependancy (it sucks) and nutty liberal college art professors (they *are* the enemies of civilization as we know it) but kids are just kids doing the kid thing just as they did in Athens 2500 years ago and just as they will on our Alpha Centuri Epsilon Eridani colonies 2500 years hence.


Fixed that for you.

Alpha Centauri, indeed. shake
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I think the funniest thing in that article must be the subtitle "Dance like Grandma's watching." What if Grandma is the Jennifer Grey character from Dirty Dancing?



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I have two daughters, ages three and six-next-month.

I have mixed feelings about all this. For the most part I tend to agree that this is just this generation's version of what every generation's parents have felt.

Where I do worry a bit is less culture than technology. When I was a kid I got my hands on a couple of random Penthouse Letters, a Playboy, whatever. A kid today is presumably watching porn online and also has the tools to do dumb things that leave a record on the Internet.

That said, I think the best thing you can do is make your kids safe for the world. Jade is a voracious reader, and one of her favorite books at the moment is It's Perfectly Normal, a book about bodies and sex for kids. It's aimed at kids around nine and some of the stuff she doesn't get, but she asks lots of questions and we answer them.

My hope is that by the time her hormones hit, sex will be something she sees as normal but also as something special. It won't have the taboo, which I think is part of why kids do some of the dumber things, and she'll also have a sense that this is something worth respecting.

Oh, and I'm raising her to be a total geek.

Same plan for Morgan.
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But this youth just screams a responsible and clean cut wholesomeness. I mean look at that well mannered pimp hat.





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DWTripp wrote:
...sex...teens.


I've got the message. And the mental image.
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It's too bad this thread was started by Tripp - for a variety of reasons, it lessens the chance of there being well-thought-out dialogue on this fascinating subject.

1st off - there's the usual logic fallacy here - how could liberal college professors be so influential as to affect large numbers of high school students' sexual/social behavior?

2nd off - I'd really like to hear from BGGers, addressing the (non?) issue of teenage hyper-sexualization.

There are many ways to approach it:
* It's a media invention, alarmist, and embarrassingly naive.
* It's kids and sex - society has always freaked out about youth sexuality.
* This is a change/evolution of youth sexual behavior in America, and worth discussing.

What I find fascinating is that IF any of these articles I've read the past couple years is to be believed whatsoever (rampant sexting, casual oral sex as a normal activity, grinding, etc on top of how I see kids dressed at the mall and schools), there is a dangerously disconnected view of teenage sexuality in America, since on one hand America tolerates/enables this behavior ("It's just kids and sex") while on the other hand America wants to protect its precious tender snowflakes and views anyone under 18 as being a child, unable to have ANY freewill or decision-making capability when it comes to sex (see all the criminalized teachers who "seduced" their 'child-like' teenage students).
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I bet myself five dollars that this thread (like all the others) would lead somehow to Obama. It didn't! I am shocked and owe myself five dollars.


Tripp, how old are you? Kids were "grinding" when I was a teen and that's been 2 decades ago, now.
 
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I think the good old days was a myth. My nephews are going through high school now and I look at how they are and think. What a bunch of goody goodies. I use facebook to connect with family and friends, but I also use it to re-connect with my High School mates, Class of 1988. And on there they post a bunch of pictures. I noticed a few recurring themes.

1. In every picture from my HS days, we always had a drink in our hands.
2. In every picture from my HS days, in the other hand with had either a cigarette, or a doobie.

IN every picture.

Then I noticed a few more things. There we several pictures of us driving to Colorado or California to go see this band and that band...

...At age 15, with no parents. And usually drinking a beer along the way.

I never see parents letting kids run amuck like we did. And sex, well that was a completely normal thing that everyone did.

Tripp, I'm not sure what responsible abstinence you practiced during the summers of Love, but looking at you in past pictures, I really don't think you were all that reserved. I know I wasn't.

Oversexed youth? Name a decade.

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I fail to see what liberal College professors have to do with what High School Teens are doing on the dance floor.

I have a daughter, she is only 5 and well does not do any dancing in gymnasiums yet. I suspect that I will not endorse dancing like you mention above, just like I seem to recall my parents not being "down" with and of the "Dirty Dancing" we did int he 80's. Let alon the crap I as a teenage boy was trying to get away with (I was never one for staying at the dance...)

Anyway these problems are no different than what we did to our parents or what our parents did to our grandparents.

As a parent I expect I will have to watch over what my children are doing 100% of the time. I expect them to make the same poor choices I made and I intend to help them see their choices as mistakes much like my parents did for me. This all seem to be the classic, this problem is worse than the same problem 20 years ago.... Nope you just have a different role now and more media coverage of BS issues.

-M
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chiddler wrote:


Like most people on this website, i'm raising my kids to be nerds. The idea of dancing and fashionable clothing should be anathema to them.


Hey, nerds can dance, too!

Incontrovertible proof:

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She is now in the vile embrace of the Apollo of the evening. Her head rests upon his shoulder, her face is upturned to his, her bare arm is almost around his neck, her partly nude swelling breast heaves tumultuously against his, face to face they whirl on, his limbs interwoven with hers, his strong right arm around her yielding form, he presses her to him until every curve in the contour of her body thrills with the amorous contact. Her eyes look into his, but she sees nothing; the soft music fills the room, but she hears it not; he bends her body to and fro, but she knows it not; his hot breath, tainted with strong drink, is on her hair and cheek, his lips almost touch her forehead, yet she does not shrink; his eyes, gleaming with a fierce, intolerable lust, gloat over her, yet she does not quail. She is filled with the rapture of sin in its intensity; her spirit is inflamed with passion and lust is gratified in thought. With a last low wail the music ceases, and the dance for the night is ended, but not the evil work of the night.

The girl whose blood is hot from the exertion and whose every carnal sense is aroused and aflame by the repetition of such scenes as we have witnessed, is led to the ever-waiting carriage, where she sinks exhausted on the cushioned seat. Oh, if I could picture to you the fiendish look that comes into his eyes as he sees his helpless victim before him. Now is his golden opportunity. He must not miss it, and he does not, and that beautiful girl who entered the dancing school as pure and innocent as an angel three months ago returns to her home that night robbed of that most precious jewel of womanhood--virtue!

When she awakes the next morning to a realizing sense of her position her first impulse is to self-destruction, but she deludes herself with the thought that her "dancing" companion will right the wrong by marriage, but that is the farthest from his thoughts, and he casts her off--"he wishes a pure woman for his wife."

She has no longer any claim to purity; her self-respect is lost; she sinks lower and lower; society shuns her, and she is to-day a brothel inmate, the toy and plaything of the libertine and drunkard.


This is from a book entitled "From the Ballroom to Hell" making the exact same argument you are Tripp (minus blaming it all on the ever-present conservative "liberal professor" boogeyman) about the evils of ballroom dancing. It was published in 1892.

Just saying.

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A college education is bad for you. Everyone knows that Tripp... this was old hat ten years ago.

Kids these days... look what they have done! They have made sex unfashionable. At least they are not patchouli smelling long-hairs like the free love hippies of old... those assholes also made drugs uncool. Let's just hope that these teens refrain from procreating. As well, let us hope that they do not start riding motorcycles. If they can make sex uncool they could do the same for the last thing they gets DW's cock on alert. I already feel dirty having sex because all I can think about during the act is these pimple faced ACLU members grinding their uglies together. I for one could never get on another motorcycle if I knew some ACLU member also rode one. And what about those hipsters in Brooklyn that took over the 20-something culture for the past 15 years??? They made my PBR, thrift store shopping, underground music and vintage bicycle totally uncool. The poor? There's no poor in the United States. You can live for two dollars a day in the US just move south to stay warm and live off the McDonald's value menu. Fuck anyone who says "poor" in relation to the US. Go to Africa and you'll see poor, everyone in the USA is rich... So, fuck hipsters... fuck the poor... fuck hippies... fuck ACLU... fuck pendulums... fuck education... fuck Europeans... fuck excess... fuck anyone that wants "stylish clothing or "nice TVs"... and fuck teenagers...
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I don't know that it's college professors, but what some parents say scares me. I attribute it more to "not needing" a parent at home.

"Oh, there's nothing you can do, kids are going to drink and have sex." My kids don't. One out of high school, a junior and sixth grader, so far, so good. To be fair, my oldest is special needs, so in some ways it was easier and the junior still thinks boys are a pain in the butt when her friends have a boyfriend.

I've also heard from other parents that the good kids avoid the back of the bus because there's a lot of oral sex going on. (This is definitely different from when I was riding the bus back in the dark ages! )
When we asked our daughter about it, she said she doesn't know what is going on, but she stays up front. And we live in a pretty nice area (financially).

Smoking (anything) wasn't an issue when I was in school (and tobacco was pretty much available from most parents). Now I guess the restrooms are a lot like bowling alleys during the day.

So I think things are different than they used to be. Better or worse is a judgement call depending on how you feel about your little girls smoking and giving indiscriminate blow jobs on school busses.

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There was a certain amount of underage sex in my peer group (25 years back). Not a huge amount but what there was started at 13+, and by 16 there was a great deal more sex. And pregnancies which forced bright and successful girls to drop out of school (but not their boyfriends, naturally.) And, being an aspirational middle class crowd, a much larger number of abortions than babies.

Certainly in the UK there is more recognition that getting a girl pregnant isn't just her problem any more; it's going to cost you maintenance for years if she chooses to keep it. That wasn't nearly as much of an issue when I was younger- boys expected to be able to walk away. I wonder whether some of this oral sex is replacing what would have been intercourse, rather than being an extension of heavy petting.

I am mildly amused by the "my child doesn't" posts. I have a 17 year old son. I know he doesn't stay out at late night parties. I know he doesn't come home drunk or smelling of booze or cigarettes. I know he doesn't bring friends home and lock his bedroom door. That is the extent of my knowledge about what he does or doesn't do. What I do know is just how much I was successfully keeping from my parents at the same age (and a couple of years younger). Parents don't always know, shouldn't expect to always know. All you can do is raise them with common sense and hope they don't do anything too irrecoverable.





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BoB3K wrote:
Tripp, how old are you? Kids were "grinding" when I was a teen and that's been 2 decades ago, now.


2 decades?

Tripp has socks older than that.

Tripp's first school dance was when his senior project was completed. We now call it "Stonehenge".
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Point # 1

No, the kids weren't dancing the same way two decades ago as they are now. And they certainly weren't grinding. As a decent dancer myself I understand that many dance styles allow close physical contact and I'm not railing out against that. What I did say, a point many of you bypassed because it was me that said it, is: this current grinding dance is simulated sex with clothes on in a high school or junior gymnasium. In short, it's as close to indiscriminate public sex as you can get without actually just allowing your daughters to fuck in public among her classmates, teachers and her friends parents.

If you go to a high school or junior high dance (as I have because my last companion has three daughters) you will see what I mean. One daughter told her sister that one guy she was dancing with jizzed his pants. They both laughed as the third daughter (then in 6th grade) looked on. I easily overheard this conversation because frankly, the girls didn't care one way or the other what I heard but they shut up about their "activities" when their mom was nearby.

Point # 2

It's my belief that removing the discretion and sense of privacy from sex and allowing open displays that are unmistakably carnal at high school dances breaks down walls that are in place for good reason. Which is why I directly asked you if you would allow your own daughter to simulate giving blow jobs or being fucked while she was on the dance floor in front of hundreds of people.

Point # 3

Of course the evil liberal professors are the ones who have degraded our children... and will also attempt to degrade and infect yours when they get to college age. This type of activity discussed in the article could not possibly happen unless the school staffs and the parents allowed it. And those people, by and large, had the brain they were born with removed in college and replaced by an inferior version... one that had new rules and instructions from the liberal elite.

Respect and dignity are not a part of this whole grinding scene. Who cares if you or I smoked a doob or drank a 12-pack when we were 16? That's not the behavior I'm discussing. And who cares if we had porn or if our kids can access porn. The difference, culturally, is what I'm talking about... mainly the difference in how easily teen girls seem to be willing to pretend they are having sex while in public.

So get to the actual question... would you be comfortable with your own daughters acting out simulated sex on the high school dance floor? If so, why? If not, why?

My personal answer is no. Similar dance styles existed when my daughter was in junior high and high school, but not as "obvious" about them simulating sex. For the most part, what I witnessed was only a few kids being ridiculous about it and there might have been some intervention by the teachers on those. My daughter was a bit of a prude in HS... more like a granola girl who rejected the "in" things in clothes and styles that the more socially conscious girls wore. She completely respected herself and her body and would be the last person to "grind".

It appears that there is a slight change in pendulum direction and my money will be on the swing heading in the more conservative direction over the next couple of decades. This thread isn't about teen pregnancy, which I understand is declining. It's not about drug use, which I find hard to connect with teenage sexual desire. It's really just asking about attitude and the erosion of walls that (in my view) allow our children extra time to emotionally and intellectually mature before being swept completely up in the tidal wave of sex, love, rejection, shame, regret, loss, joy, humiliation and all the other qualities that come with the territory of sexual awakening.

* note *

When I was in school there were, like now, some girls who just liked to fuck. They didn't need to dance suggestively or wear fuck-me clothes (which wouldn't have been allowed). Word got out and along with that came unusually high interest in hanging with them. For the most part those girls did not fuck indiscriminately. So a lot of virginal high school boys got their egos further smashed when they tried to chat one of these libertines up and instead received a humiliating put-down.

No doubt you had some similar girls in your schools and no doubt there are plenty out there now in the schools. I never once failed to respect the looser girls. Partly because I observed how much they actually respected themselves and how easily they castrated guys who thought they were gonna get laid just because the girl had a rep. Me and my buddy Randy worked just as hard for the attention of several of those girls as we did for the favors of the prudes or "known virgins". So I don't have an "attitude" about teen sex. It's always happened and it's really only in the last several hundred years that it's become society's problem rather than something that the family controls, deals with and sets limits on.

So try and stay on point... and that goes for you too Chapel. And the hat, for those in the know, was actually a Gore-Tex rain hat from the 70's. If I had that baby now it'd probably bring $100 on eBay.
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Quote:
So get to the actual question... would you be comfortable with your own daughters acting out simulated sex on the high school dance floor? If so, why? If not, why?


Short answer, absolutely not.

I am also enough of an ass to ask someone else's kids to stop if I happen to be one of the parents at the dance. Something I will be if I suspect my children would be exposed to behavior like this.

So Tripp I agree with you, not in that I am shocked that chiildren do these things, but in that adults stand by and let it happen.

Fortunately for me I live in a community where the parents would not allow this, and that's why I think these stories are hype. I am not sure where these places are that kids grind like a stripper while the parents stand around ignoring them.


Quote:
... mainly the difference in how easily teen girls seem to be willing to pretend they are having sex while in public.


What about this compared to statistics on those same girls actually having sex as a teen? Are those numbers up or down? Can we get a decade to decade comparison?


-M



edit: english
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Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop here, but why are some people so quick to blame college professors for the problems with todays children? That logic implies that all students do in college is go to classes where their "evil, liberal professors" inject lies and sexuality into their lives. As if the students don't experience those things themselves at college with little to no involvement from their professors.

I know it's convenient to assign a scapegoat, but a little logic goes a long way.

On topic, no, I don't think it's appropriate for people in high school to be grinding in public in the way that's become so popular. When I went to high school though (class of 2004 - I'm not all that old) the parents and teachers responsible for keeping order at the dances were very good about making sure that 'simulated sex' did not occur on the dance floor.

It takes more than just someone standing on their soapbox and preaching to a bunch of people about it (online, no less) to change things.
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What about this compared to statistics on those same girls actually having sex as a teen? Are those numbers up or down? Can we get a decade to decade comparison?


Who knows? My gut feeling would be that more teen girls have sex now than they did when I was a teen. I think that's obvious. But what value are surveys of this sort anyway? Why wouldn't teens responding to questions lie about sex? I know I would have if I felt the question was too personal... or if I wanted someone to think a certain thing about me.

Bottom line is that exposure and de-sensitizing sex most likely makes sex at an early age more likely. Whether this is good, bad or inconsequential isn't easy to answer one way or the other. Depends on the age, the way the girls and boys deal with it and a whole bunch of other factors.

My disagreement with this whole grinding thing is the public and disrespectful nature of it and the potential that it breaks down barriers best left in place until the teens are better equipped to handle the emotions and serious choices that actual sex leads to.

My anecdotal observations of my ex's teen daughters, who all eagerly took up grinding and dressing suggestively, is that they quickly progressed from the teasing and seductive nature of the activity into having sex early. By early I mean at 15 or so. Since I wasn't part of the decision making team regarding what their behavior was I could only sit back and bite my tongue. Whether those three will pay some price for teen sex later or not, who knows? The 20 year old is pregnant and not yet married and her boyfriend (who is 22) already has a 2 year old from a former girlfriend. I think she is making poor choices but I would never say that to her or her mother. I suspect this year, her sophomore college year, will be her last taste of higher education and her boyfriend had already dropped out after his 2nd year because of the pressure of having a child when he was twenty.

Hype

No, they aren't hype. I have seen it and I live in a relatively rural community in a Red State. From what I hear locally there is an effort underway to put an end to the grinding and it may have already happened. Friends I have in Boise tell me there was a whole furor over it a year or two back there. Not sure what the outcome was but being as this is a conservative area I assume it has been curtailed.
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DWTripp wrote:


Who knows? My gut feeling would be that more teen girls have sex now than they did when I was a teen. I think that's obvious. But what value are surveys of this sort anyway? Why wouldn't teens responding to questions lie about sex? I know I would have if I felt the question was too personal... or if I wanted someone to think a certain thing about me.



True. But what if they asked people of your age today? It should be easy to ascertain sexual habits of people in the 60's by just asking them. Did you have sex as a teen. I think it would be easier to gain better answers after people age and aren't as apprehensive about answering.
 
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