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Eating my breakfast, reading my morning paper, I read that three PM:s from the Christian party want the Swedish parliament to demand that Turkey admits the 1915 Armenian genocide. Of all atrocities carried out the last 95 years that haven't been admitted by a lot of governments, why this one? Because they know that this kind of talk effectively keeps the overly patriotically sensitive Turkey out of the European Union, and hence keeps the union "Christian and clean" (if it wasn't for the immigrants). I don't mind demanding Turkey to step up democratic reform and abolish their pathetic "don't insult the nation" laws and what else they got, before entering the union. But keeping them out on religious grounds is to reinforce religious nutheads in all countries, increasing the appeal of the Islamist leaders that go: "look, the Christians don't want us", effectively creating more Samuel Huntington = more suicide bombers, and more need for the US to drone-bomb weddings. I say to my dear Christian Party parliament members: take your religiously motivated racism and go to hell. Now you made Mondainai angry, and this means he has to insult the faiths of innocent boardgamers that had nothing to do with this.
And if you say that criticizing genocide isn't criticizing their religion, then you are right, but I find it undeniable that the latter is the ultimate reason; the Armenian debate is a convenient tool for European leaders whom for various murky reasons want to give Turkey the cold shoulder, such as France's Sarkozy. But some of them don't mind getting their hands dirty with religion, such as the man who for some reason became my president, Herman van Rompuy: "But it's a matter of fact that the universal values which are in force in Europe, and which are also the fundamental values of Christianity, will lose vigour with the entry of a large Islamic country such as Turkey." How the hell did this happen? Have the president elected by the people or by the parliament, like they do it in "democracies", don't just meet in a secret room and hand me down a Christian fanatic as president in a fashion that makes the US constitution from 1787 look up to date. Now you made Mondainai angry, and this means he has to insult the faiths of innocent boardgamers that had nothing to do with this.
And if you ask, why is it ok to criticize Christianity but not Islam? then I say it's ok to criticize both, but that faith should have nothing to do with what member states can enter the EU. I heartily welcomed Lithuania, Poland and Ireland, despite the hostility towards aborters and homosexuals that are ingrained in their mustily Christian populations. But they make Mondainai angry, and this means he has to insult the faiths of innocent boardgamers that have nothing to do with this.
Post more pictures in this thread; don't let the Christians of Europe have their faith in peace until they stop harassing homosexuals and stop demanding Christianity from new member states.
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A bunch of crazy christians barring the way to Turkey is not a sufficient argument to letting Turkey in.

edit: funny that two left green european atheists can disagree about... well about nearly everything! do you like pasta?
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Mondainai wrote:
I heartily welcomed Lithuania, Poland and Ireland, despite the hostility towards aborters and homosexuals that are ingrained in their mustily Christian populations.
Yeah, Ireland became an EU member state long before Sweden, but you get my point whistle
 
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HavocIsHere wrote:
A bunch of crazy christians barring the way to Turkey is not a sufficient argument to letting Turkey in.
So besides from their democracy not being up to standard yet, what's your argument for shutting them out?
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Mondainai wrote:
So besides from their democracy not being up to standard yet, what's your argument for shutting them out?

That's entirely sufficient for shutting them out.
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HavocIsHere wrote:
edit: funny that two left green european atheists can disagree about... well about nearly everything! do you like pasta?
I love pasta, but I'm trying to eat less of it for health reasons, and I stick to Asian variants in order to combat European protectionism.

I think the difference is that you're village-green and I'm world-green.
You're 18th century-green and I'm 22th century-green.

Ha! That was the humblest thing I've written in a long while
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HavocIsHere wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
So besides from their democracy not being up to standard yet, what's your argument for shutting them out?

That's entirely sufficient for shutting them out.
So, when their democracy is up to standard, you're welcoming them?
 
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chiddler wrote:
Islam isn't a race.

Fearing or hating Islam may well be wrong (though I'm not keen on it myself), but its not racism.
Correct indeed, but there is a lot of racism involved when shutting Turkey out, and when racism is not acceptable, it's masked as religion. And when religion is not acceptable, it's masked as concern with the Armenian genocide.

So I guess the last option is what's left for HavocIsHere.
 
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Mondainai wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
So besides from their democracy not being up to standard yet, what's your argument for shutting them out?

That's entirely sufficient for shutting them out.
So, when their democracy is up to standard, you're welcoming them?

Quand les poules auront des dents?

Sure.

For Darilian:

No this isn't me in that plane!!!
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HavocIsHere wrote:

Quand les poules auront des dents?

Sure.
You think Turkey is incapable of democracy?

At least they get to elect their president...
 
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Mondainai wrote:
chiddler wrote:
Islam isn't a race.

Fearing or hating Islam may well be wrong (though I'm not keen on it myself), but its not racism.
Correct indeed, but there is a lot of racism involved when shutting Turkey out, and when racism is not acceptable, it's masked as religion. And when religion is not acceptable, it's masked as concern with the Armenian genocide.

So I guess the last option is what's left for HavocIsHere.

I'd agree with the first paragraph for some but not the latter. I don't know Havoc personally and I suspect neither do you.

i'm taking more interest of late in EU politics since I'm married to an EU citizen, but i was aware of the issues with Turkey's admission well before that was the case. As I understand it, Turkey has in recent years had a shift towards de-secularization and hard-line fundamentalist Muslim parties have gotten into power in many respects. The country is goign through a major political transition and not necessarily one the EU should wish to be associated with.

Racism and anti-Muslim bigotry probably do add to this, but should the EU not be concerned about admitting into its ranks a country in which the political situation is not stable and perhaps not desirable?

My country has been for a long time an ally of Turkey, but Turkey has taken of late to reject the alliance and has even broadcast antisemitic programs on TV-- which is gov't controlled. It is aligning itself with Syria, a country which openly supports terrorism round the world. These are just examples but do seem to indicate a disturbing trend.
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Mondainai wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:

Quand les poules auront des dents?

Sure.
You think Turkey is incapable of democracy?

At least they get to elect their president...


That EEC president is a joke. That's something we can agree on.

But do no compare the adhesion of Turkey with the adhesion of other countries; I was not in favour of the too quick integration of eastern european countries neither.
I would have prefered a consolidated EEC with a strong constitution and fiscal rules before other countries joining. The reason is a very practical one; I am adverse to "design by committee", and I can't see how any progress can still be made with 25 dissonant voices shouting around the table.
Turkey alone is yet another different culture, so I think that their integration is way premature.
 
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whac3 wrote:
As I understand it, Turkey has in recent years had a shift towards de-secularization and hard-line fundamentalist Muslim parties have gotten into power in many respects. The country is goign through a major political transition and not necessarily one the EU should wish to be associated with.

Racism and anti-Muslim bigotry probably do add to this, but should the EU not be concerned about admitting into its ranks a country in which the political situation is not stable and perhaps not desirable?
The "deep" Turkish state, the military, the courts etc, is secular, and the rise of islamist parties thus provoke authoritarian secular reaction.

EU countries lend strength to islamist Turks when rejecting Turkey on religious grounds, as the secular part of the Turkish population sort of gets left alone. The secular, democratic, educated elites in the cities feel betrayed by Sarkozy, van Rompuy and the likes of them.

whac3 wrote:
My country has been for a long time an ally of Turkey, but Turkey has taken of late to reject the alliance and has even broadcast antisemitic programs on TV-- which is gov't controlled. It is aligning itself with Syria, a country which openly supports terrorism round the world. These are just examples but do seem to indicate a disturbing trend.
Even the Swedish government gets regularly bashed for antisemitism for having controversial art exhibitions and the like in effectively govt-controlled institutions. Discussing that is another thread though.

But you're right in that Turkey on average is moving away from their European identity towards their Muslim identity. Why is that?

Because they're welcome there!
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Mondainai wrote:
Correct indeed, but there is a lot of racism involved when shutting Turkey out, and when racism is not acceptable, it's masked as religion. And when religion is not acceptable, it's masked as concern with the Armenian genocide.

So I guess the last option is what's left for HavocIsHere.


This gets a little tiring.
Say anything against Obama and you are a racist.
Say anything against Israel policies and you are against all jews.
Say anything against Turkey and you are anti-Islam.


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HavocIsHere wrote:
But do no compare the adhesion of Turkey with the adhesion of other countries.
Because?

HavocIsHere wrote:
I would have prefered a consolidated EEC with a strong constitution and fiscal rules before other countries joining. The reason is a very practical one; I am adverse to "design by committee", and I can't see how any progress can still be made with 25 dissonant voices shouting around the table.
Yes, the EU need to get its act together. Most of all, the veto rules must be abolished. But when EU has it's act together, then what?

HavocIsHere wrote:
Turkey alone is yet another different culture, so I think that their integration is way premature.
Different culture, huh? So what is it in the Polish and Italian cultures that Turkey doesn't have, or the other way around?
 
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HavocIsHere wrote:
This gets a little tiring.
Say anything against Obama and you are a racist.
Say anything against Israel policies and you are against all jews.
Say anything against Turkey and you are anti-Islam.
Tiring? We haven't started yet. When Turkey and EU have got their political systems in shape, what is it that you want to say against Turkey?
 
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The mini-series in question portryed as fact the accusations in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the blood libel.
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Mondainai wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
But do no compare the adhesion of Turkey with the adhesion of other countries.
Because?

Because, as I've explained, I was no more in favour of the recent additions to the EEC, for reasons explained above....

Mondainai wrote:

HavocIsHere wrote:
Turkey alone is yet another different culture, so I think that their integration is way premature.
Different culture, huh? So what is it in the Polish and Italian cultures that Turkey doesn't have, or the other way around?

Please do read my simple sentences before making assumptions.
See the emphasis there. YET ANOTHER: it does NOT mean that I value Turkey's culture LESS than others.
I've not written that Poland's culture is better or worse: my point is that EEC has already enough problem with trying to accomodate with already too many different cultures. Is that point too difficult too understand?

If you do not agree with me, aren't you able to explain why without suggesting suggesting I am a racist or a christian radical? yuk
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Mondainai wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
This gets a little tiring.
Say anything against Obama and you are a racist.
Say anything against Israel policies and you are against all jews.
Say anything against Turkey and you are anti-Islam.
Tiring? We haven't started yet. When Turkey and EU have got their political systems in shape, what is it that you want to say against Turkey?


Nothing specific against Turkey... I am against any addition until the EEC system is fixed... got it?
 
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Okay I've explained my objection and agree that they would be moot should Turkey's become a real secular democracy and the EEC gets fixed (I do not know which of these is the most unlikely to happen in the forseeable future).

But now Mondi, let's see why you would actually support their admission...
Your only argument is that you would like them in just to piss Van Rompuy and some christians. That's an interesting idea! Then let's add China just to displease the racists who can't stand asians! I'm sure you'll get your favourite noodles for half the price then. Now that's a good reason.
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HavocIsHere wrote:
Nothing specific against Turkey... I am against any addition until the EEC system is fixed... got it?
I'm sorry, your comment on chicken growing teeth, your initial statement that we always agree and my general prejudgment and fight-picking made me think that you for some reason felt Turkey was less eligible as member than other European nations of similar democratic and economic standing.

I apologize for misreading you. Maybe we have found something more than pasta to agree on.

So, let's get the union in order and shut our Christian supremacist leaders up, as they work towards dividing this part of the world in two.
 
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HavocIsHere wrote:
But now Mondi, let's see why you would actually support their admission
I think the whole world should be offered membership. But Turkey especially so, as it's a neighbor, a long-term ally, a strong trading partner AND most of all, that it'd send an incredibly strong message to religious fanatics in the US, Austria, Poland, Turkey, Israel, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Integration with Turkey on state level would also facilitate the integration of our sizable Turkish underclasses we have in Sweden and Germany. The many educated Turks would make a good bridge between the millions of Anatolian farmers we have here already, and the rest of us.

That European Christian leaders would get annoyed is just a bonus.
 
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Mondainai wrote:
your comment on chicken growing teeth

Oh I just meant that evolution of Turkey towards more democracy is unlikely.
 
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Mondainai wrote:
Now you made Mondainai angry, and this means he has to insult the faiths of innocent boardgamers that had nothing to do with this.


And you have to do this why? Because it demonstrates that atheists are also capable of the broad, sweeping, insulting generalizations that you ascribe to the religious?

Let's put that fire out with gasoline. That'll help.
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Mondainai wrote:
whac3 wrote:
As I understand it, Turkey has in recent years had a shift towards de-secularization and hard-line fundamentalist Muslim parties have gotten into power in many respects. The country is goign through a major political transition and not necessarily one the EU should wish to be associated with.

Racism and anti-Muslim bigotry probably do add to this, but should the EU not be concerned about admitting into its ranks a country in which the political situation is not stable and perhaps not desirable?
The "deep" Turkish state, the military, the courts etc, is secular, and the rise of islamist parties thus provoke authoritarian secular reaction.

EU countries lend strength to islamist Turks when rejecting Turkey on religious grounds, as the secular part of the Turkish population sort of gets left alone. The secular, democratic, educated elites in the cities feel betrayed by Sarkozy, van Rompuy and the likes of them.

whac3 wrote:
My country has been for a long time an ally of Turkey, but Turkey has taken of late to reject the alliance and has even broadcast antisemitic programs on TV-- which is gov't controlled. It is aligning itself with Syria, a country which openly supports terrorism round the world. These are just examples but do seem to indicate a disturbing trend.
Even the Swedish government gets regularly bashed for antisemitism for having controversial art exhibitions and the like in effectively govt-controlled institutions. Discussing that is another thread though.

But you're right in that Turkey on average is moving away from their European identity towards their Muslim identity. Why is that?

Because they're welcome there!


Without taking a more in-depth look at the situation, I have to agree with Harald here, in that the continued rejection of Turkey into the EU is serving to both offend secular Turks who feel pushed aside by the West, and plays into the hands of radical Islamists in that nation who want to see Turkey move towards a fundementalist form of government. This EU rejection would seem to make it more difficult for secular, Western-looking Turks to make their case for democracy and western ways to their Islamic countrymen.
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