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Subject: Which version is this? rss

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Simon Lundström
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I know am the owner of the Swedish edition of Cosmic Encounter. Having 4 different entries on BGG, I don't really know which of these I should mark as "owned". It's certainly not the FFG edition, nor the AH edition.

It contains small cardboard tokens ships for 5 players, and has 16 alien powers. What version should this be counted as?

*hates the BGG game entry split bogus*
 
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Chakroun Karim
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I see... If I had time I'd look into it and edit the wiki to help others disambiguate their version... though of course I only have the FFG edition, so not very helpful... sorry.
 
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Jack Reda
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It falls under the Eon edition.


::loves the split BGG entries awesome::
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Darrell Ottery
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What's the date on it?

If it's mid-80s ish it could well be a Swedish version of the GW/WEG version, though I thought that came with 6 players and 32 powers. There was some cross-publishing with GW around that time to resulted in Drak Borgen/DungeonQuest.

The Mayfair version from the early 90s had 6 players and more powers than 16, but Simply Cosmic was a cut-down version of that edition.

However, these are just guesses - photo or other info might help further delving.
 
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Simon Lundström
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The Warp wrote:
It falls under the Eon edition.


Why does it? Does the Eon edition come with 16 alien powers? By the way, they seem to be these powers:

Bluffer (gambler? Plays card face down, may lie about it)
Machine
Vulch
Laser
Seeker (yes/no question)
Mutant
Parasite
Amoeba
Vacuum? (eradicates defeated ships)
Clone
Anacronite (redoes challenge)
Brain (looks at opponent's cards)
Empath (attack cards = negotiate)
Zombie
Philantrope (give away cards)
Changer (exchanges hands with opponent)

Seems to be dated 1987.

Splitting up the discussions between editions is detrimental for those asking for help. Queries about how Vacuum works with Zombie is the same regardless of edition. It's also (in cases like this) rather offensively America-centered, as the only editions listed are the American versions and I have to make research to even know what game I should list as "owned". Not to mention it's downright silly.
 
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Todd France
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Zimeon wrote:
Splitting up the discussions between editions is detrimental for those asking for help. Queries about how Vacuum works with Zombie is the same regardless of edition. It's also (in cases like this) rather offensively America-centered, as the only editions listed are the American versions and I have to make research to even know what game I should list as "owned". Not to mention it's downright silly.

I concede the Amerocentricity argument, though my resolution would be to add the European editions. As for detrimental to discussions, anyone who cares about more than one edition should monitor the Family: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/133/cosmic-enco...
 
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Simon Lundström
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Yes, unfortunately the family entries are much a broader definition that what merely constitutes a "game" as a set of rules. Moreover, they're not covering all events of split entries, and they're also very hidden and thus not used for discussing rules and variants.

Now, however, I'd more like to know what kind of version I'm sitting, on, or whether this is yet another entry to add to the confusion.

 
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Todd France
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Is it this one?

Failing getting a new entry added (which would be my preferred solution), I'd assume it goes under Eon, as that's where this image is under.

If it has single-use flares, I'd make a case for the Mayfair edition, but I'd guess it doesn't have any.

Zimeon wrote:
and they're also very hidden and thus not used for discussing rules and variants.

IMHO, that's not a site functionality issue, it's a user knowledge base issue. And the point is more that the "Linked Forums" section lets users with a general interest in Cosmic Encounter browse all the relevant forums quickly, so no matter which forum you posted in, a knowledgeable party would be likely to see it. Though frankly, the actual family forums would probably be the most logical place for a thread like this in the first place.
 
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Simon Lundström
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pseudotheist wrote:
Is it this one?

Yep.

pseudotheist wrote:
I'd assume it goes under Eon, as that's where this image is under.

That the image is listed under the old entry is no guarantee at all that the Swedish version is a translation of the Eon version. Upon the split, all non-American versions were simply bundled up under the original entry like some second-class we-don't-care issue.

The game has no flares.

pseudotheist wrote:
IMHO, that's not a site functionality issue, it's a user knowledge base issue.

It is very much a functionality issue, as the family forums just aren't used for that purpose. Posing a question there will not make it show up on the games pages where quite obviously people are looking, and it will not show up on GeekFeed either. It's indeed a functionality issue. Secondly, "family" is a much broader definition than just "different editions of the same basic game". Thirdly, the families is just for a select few games. It makes no sense that rules questions and variant for certain games should be on the family level when it for the vast majority of games can be posed on the game page.

pseudotheist wrote:
And the point is more that the "Linked Forums" section lets users with a general interest in Cosmic Encounter browse all the relevant forums quickly, so no matter which forum you posted in, a knowledgeable party would be likely to see it.

That is good, but only for those visiting the family page. It doesn't help as to "where to post this".

pseudotheist wrote:
Though frankly, the actual family forums would probably be the most logical place for a thread like this in the first place.

The most logical place would be in the single entry for the game "Cosmic Encounter", which would encompass all versions of that same game, as "family" is a definition where Starship Catan and Settlers of Catan, two utterly different games that except for the name have virtually nothing in common, are bundled together.

Does anyone know what aliens the original Eon game came with? The Mayfair game? Or the West End games version (which entry does that one sort under, by the way)?
 
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Jack Reda
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I fully support the Swedish edition getting its own entry, because you are correct, it is not precisely an exact reproduction of the original Eon edition. Neither is the Games Workshop version. Both were based on the Eon edition (plus some expansion material from Eon). Neither of those editions is based on the Mayfair or subsequent editions (which came out after both the GW and Swedish editions. Hence that is why it's part of the Eon entry. But as I said, they should all get their own edition- that way, when you ask a question, you will be asking about the exact right edition.

That bolsters the argument against the combined entry, which was just a dumb idea. There were MANY questions there that were specific to an entry but caused a ton of confusion because no one was sure which edition the OP was asking about. Flares is a great example. Someone was asking about when the Flare was discarded, but the answer to that depends on the edition. And if you say "Does this power stop the Doppelganger wild flare?" who knows what you're actually asking. Not only did some editions not have a Doppelganger flare, and not only did they behave differently from one edition to another as far as being discarded or retained, but the text of the cards and their effects were also totally different. Mayfair made the flares one use and discard, and changed their effects radically on many of them.

And that is just flares. Some powers are different from one edition to another, some reverse hexes are different. Some have different rules, different components, different numbers of players, different types of cards, etc. etc. etc. The best way to get to the bottom of what you want to know, print, use, and so forth is to have everything categorized specifically.

You ask a question about the original Arkham horror board game on the forums for the FFG version of it, it's really not applicable. The same is quite true of CE.

Get this version its own entry, and then you can "own" it properly. Because that's important too.
 
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Simon Lundström
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The Warp wrote:
I fully support the Swedish edition getting its own entry, because you are correct, it is not precisely an exact reproduction of the original Eon edition.

Well, it's most certainly SOME version. I have a hard time thinking it's a unique edition. Sweden's not the country who'll make an own version of a foreign board game. It's a translation of some version, I just don't know which.

The Warp wrote:
But as I said, they should all get their own edition- that way, when you ask a question, you will be asking about the exact right edition.

For the current issue, separate entries is the core problem, not the solution.

There are indeed certain cases where it's good to know what version you're talking about (reviews, images, certain rules differences) but a large part of the discussions, many rules questions and, especially for Cosmic Encounter, all the variants and home-made powers, concern all editions. I have nothing against that ownage and reviews and such are tagged for a specific edition, I'm against that for the games with split entries, there is no natural place for a general discussion to take place. The Family forums aren't used for posting variants, for example. Currently, a user has to skim four different forums in search for variants and general discussions, which I find is very unnecessary

The Warp wrote:
The best way to get to the bottom of what you want to know, print, use, and so forth is to have everything categorized specifically.

I agree. However, with this system, there is no way to NOT categorize a post, if it should concern all editions. If all posts were meticulously categorized, and there was a way to not categorized posts that concern all editions, I would be with you. However, that is not the case. There are a lot of posts in the FFG edition forums, mostly variant, that are of use all editions, and probably a lot of posts in the other edition's forums as well. Having that in four places is just dumb. It's better to have a system were certain posts can be categorized and tagged, but still stacked in the same place. Sometimes you don't know what edition you're talking about (like me, now) and in those cases, it's a mess when you have to categorize a post to belong to a certain edition, when, in fact, it doesn't.

There is a need for a "general" place, concerning all versions of a game, for a lot of the posts. When someone makes a map for Ticket to Ride, it's almost invariably posted in the 'main' TtR entry, despite the fact it can be used for any version of the game.

Most of all, it's a bit confusing when searching for Cosmic Encounter and the edition name isn't even in the title. It's much better to have one game page, and one game forum, and when you mark ownage, or post a review or an image, you get to tag "what edition is this post about?" with "all editions" as an option, and with a filter, similar to the image section (game/people/creative/all). That way, both separating questions/reviews/images per version, AND still keeping a general game forum would work.

The Warp wrote:
Get this version its own entry, and then you can "own" it properly. Because that's important too.

It's very improbably that this is a unique edition. It's a translation of one of the editions, though I don't know which.

Probably because this forum isn't read by those who have the edition of which this is a translation, I don't know. Perhaps I should cross-post to all editions' forums, in order to address all owners of this game. But I'm not that fond of cross-posting, although I've been forced to a couple of times in the past.
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Simon Lundström
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
Here on earth it's actually very beneficial for a game such as Cosmic, which has some substantial differences between editions.

No need to be sarcastic. I'm making a point. You're welcome to make a counterpoint without insinuating that I'm stupid for making my point.

I'm all clear with the fact that there are rules differences between editions and that it might have been a chore to constantly have to ask for what edition the question is for, for such a popular game as Cosmic Encounter.

My point, as you seem to have missed it, is not that there are NO questions/images/reviews/ratings worth splitting, because indeed, certain information wins on being edition-specific. My point is that there is a lot of information that is worth NOT splitting. Currently, information about Cosmic Encounter HAS to be split; there is no central place to ask a question about Cosmic Encounter, addressing all the different versions at the same time. This discussion was indeed held last year. That doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of info that does not gain on being split, no matter how many years that pass.

CaptainCosmic wrote:
If wondering which boxes to check is really your issue here (and I don't think it is; you just wanted to bring up this old argument again)

Just as there is no need to be sarcastic, there is also no need to try to think for me. My purpose of this thread was not to bring up the old argument, it was to find out what version of Cosmic Encounter I am owning, so that I might mark it as owned. I will, however, upon every chance, make the point that each game needs a central place for discussion. Even Cosmic Encounter.

CaptainCosmic wrote:
then use Eon for the Swedish version. It's by far the version it's closest to.

Why? No one has said why the Eon version is closest. Also, that the Swedish edition should be something unique rule-wise and power-wise, is impossible. It has to be one of the versions. Alga doesn't make games, they just distribute them.

CaptainCosmic wrote:
I fail to see how this will impact your overall BGG experience in a negative fashion.

That I mark the Eon version as "owned" though I don't own that specific version doesn't really impact my BGG experience negatively. That there is no central place to post about games like Cosmic Encounter, Incan Gold/Diamant, Wabash Cannonball/Chicago Express, Dampfross/Railway Rivals, Powergrid/Megawatts, the various Ticket to Rides does impact my BGG experience negatively, but not severely, as people seem to naturally choose one forum to cluster around.

If this trend should continue, however, so that we would have 4 Robo Rally forums, 2 Agricola forums, 5 forums for the Swedish version of Monopoly, 6 forums for the Swedish farmer game Bondespelet and a handful of forums for the game "Top Race", then that would indeed impact my BGG experience severely negatively, which is why I am at all points trying to steer the trend into something that's good for all parts:

A system where all versions of a certain game are listed on the same game page, share the same forums/images and whatnot, but where all forum posts, images and ratings have a mandatory edition tag where 'all editions' is an option, and where you could filter in/out the versions you're not interested in would do exactly what you ask for, while still keeping the information that doesn't need to be split, combined. At least for those who wish. And it's not hard to make either, versions already exist, a mandatory tag for forum posts already exists (general/sessions/reviews), and the image section already works in many ways like how I explained; you can sort to view only a specific type, or all types at the same time. I fail to see why you would think this would be bad.
 
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