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Subject: yet another dice/fate cards thread rss

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Morten Jønsson
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KBH S
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hey, I'm kinda on the fence regarding this game, you see I have the problem of not having a very stable playing group (By now i have played my copy if TI 3ed. a good 10 times, but in every game there's been maybe 3 or 4 players who knew the game and the rest were new). Obviously this leads to the issue of first time players hardly having a grasp of the tactics of the game. But it's either constantly cycle through people or not play at all, so i digress.

But in regards to runewars most actions are decided by the fate cards and there aren't that many of them. Now the main argument in favour of them is that they allow for card counting and thusly the weighing of risks. Now i can see how this is awesome if your the same 4 people every time, and as such all know the fate deck. However the first game, or the first few games the result must appear random (unless you allow each new player 30 minutes to memorise the cards, and even then there's probably too much going on to remember them), thereby giving the veteran players a huge advantage.

i guess my question could be summarized as: how hard is it to abstain from card counting in the game? and is it plausible to mayby shuffle the fate deck once half the cards are used or would that lead to too much work?
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Chris J Davis
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The only thing you really have to count are the number of gold "success" icons that have appeared so far. Whenever we draw one of those, we discard it into a separate pile so that all players can easily see how many there have been so far.
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mateo jurasic
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just may a little chart showing how many cards are in the deck,and how many successes/neutrals/failures there are, and everyone will have the same knowledge.

Personally, the only time I bother looking is sometimes when Im gonna do diplomacy, and then it really only matters if a bunch of cards have already been played. How many times do you do diplomacy in a typically game... 2? 3?

 
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Eric Kuha
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yeah, it's kind of rare to have enough influence to be an effective diplomat. However, I did see my brother get lucky spending two influence (when the deck was fairly well exhausted, to be fair) and getting a success, thereby converting a dragon AND a giant and like two smaller monsters.

He didn't get a chance to use them, but it was still pretty awesome to see.
 
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Eric Kuha
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BTW, the fate deck is one of the reasons why this game is so great even for non-gamers. I don't think that people here give non-geeks enough credit. This is NOT an overly complicated game and most people will understand the fate deck very quickly and how the orders work and supremacy bonuses, etc. It is a LOT more streamlined than TI3. I would never dream of forcing TI3 on non-gamers. But I would not hesitate to suggest runewars.
 
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Therron Thomas
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I am honestly not as enthused about card counting to win the whole game as I am feeling like the fate deck alters by decisions. I know this sounds like I should be hanging out with a bunch or LARP'ers but I think its kinda cool to WANT to conduct diplomacy for example but know the stars aren't alligned to give me a chance. Thus having to wait another season to do it and having to fall back onto moving troops elsewhere or just trying to raise more troops, etc...

Knowing that the enemy may have the upper hand in combat because the magic ball said that 'triangle based units will not fair well in this season'.

Sure I love to win, but my enthusiasm for the fate deck is more as a
guiding light to easy or tough descisions.

 
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ŁṲÎS̈
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mateooo wrote:
just may a little chart showing how many cards are in the deck,and how many successes/neutrals/failures there are, and everyone will have the same knowledge.

Personally, the only time I bother looking is sometimes when Im gonna do diplomacy, and then it really only matters if a bunch of cards have already been played. How many times do you do diplomacy in a typically game... 2? 3?



Fate card statistics (and dice replacement)
 
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Nathan
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YancyS wrote:
BTW, the fate deck is one of the reasons why this game is so great even for non-gamers. I don't think that people here give non-geeks enough credit. This is NOT an overly complicated game and most people will understand the fate deck very quickly and how the orders work and supremacy bonuses, etc. It is a LOT more streamlined than TI3. I would never dream of forcing TI3 on non-gamers. But I would not hesitate to suggest runewars.


Not sure I follow your reasoning. How exactly does the fate deck simplify Runewars vs Twilight Imperium? Combat in TI may be a dicefest, but so was Risk. How does replacing that with cards change the complexity?

 
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mateo jurasic
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you dont need to have chart to show the different results of different dice rolls on different units. this isnt like risk or Axis and allies where a unit hits or misses

Units in this game of MULTIPLE different outcomes, miss, rout once, route more than once, special, wound, wound more than once, etc... And each type of unit (triangle, hex, square, circle) has a different probability of doing each of these actions.

If you have a simple, easy to learn way of doing this, well then you might be smarter than me. As it is, the cards do this easily.
The cards also give you the benefit of being able to draw up to 30 at a time (do you have 30 dice of every possible configuration?) because you cant just roll one dice, resolve it, then roll the next. You have to get all the results, then resolve them in a specific order (special, rout, then damage.)
this is something that cards can do much easier than dice, unless you have up to 30 of each type of dice, and enough rolling room to roll each without nudging them and changing their results)

Now granted I havent done the math and counted all the models of units and considered every imaginable scenerio, so you might not need 30 of each type, but you would need probably at 10 of some and 5-6 of others.
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Nathan
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mateooo wrote:
you dont need to have chart to show the different results of different dice rolls on different units. this isnt like risk or Axis and allies where a unit hits or misses

Units in this game of MULTIPLE different outcomes, miss, rout once, route more than once, special, wound, wound more than once, etc... And each type of unit (triangle, hex, square, circle) has a different probability of doing each of these actions.

If you have a simple, easy to learn way of doing this, well then you might be smarter than me. As it is, the cards do this easily.
The cards also give you the benefit of being able to draw up to 30 at a time (do you have 30 dice of every possible configuration?) because you cant just roll one dice, resolve it, then roll the next. You have to get all the results, then resolve them in a specific order (special, rout, then damage.)
this is something that cards can do much easier than dice, unless you have up to 30 of each type of dice, and enough rolling room to roll each without nudging them and changing their results)

Now granted I havent done the math and counted all the models of units and considered every imaginable scenerio, so you might not need 30 of each type, but you would need probably at 10 of some and 5-6 of others.


Many players are using a chart showing the contents of the fate deck to new players. You just replace one chart with another. After a couple games this may not be needed, but I think that is similar in learning curve to Axis and Allies. After a couple games you tend to remember what each unit needs to hit.

Multiple outcomes from dice are handled just fine in Battlelore, Descent and many other games. (multiple hits, routs, specials).

When are you ever going to need to draw 30 cards? You draw cards for each initiative seperately, reshuffling the deck when needed. The defender can at most have 8 units (due to unit restrictions), meaning the attacker would have to bring 22 units of the same initiative to the battle. If the deck runs out of cards you still have to pause for a reshuffle before drawing more cards, which seems no different than having to roll multiple times. Add in to this that the game requires you to pause if players want to look through the discard pile, and it doesn't seem any quicker than dice.

Strip away the hyperbole and new game fanaticism and the fortune deck doesn't seem to do anything that hasn't been done with dice in other games. It is what it is, works well enough in the game, but lets leave the hype at the door.
 
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Scott Lewis
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ngoike wrote:
The defender can at most have 8 units (due to unit restrictions),

Unless the defender is the Undead and has 8 Necromancer units drawing, and they all get Orbs; then they would have 16 units as well
 
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Nathan
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sigmazero13 wrote:
ngoike wrote:
The defender can at most have 8 units (due to unit restrictions),

Unless the defender is the Undead and has 8 Necromancer units drawing, and they all get Orbs; then they would have 16 units as well


In theory the attacker could also use neutral units to bring in 20+ units with initiative 1.

It's possible, but really unlikely. I don't think the deck is 30 cards to support larger armies, rather it was just a nice round number to make the probabilites simple and keep production costs reasonable.
 
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Scott Lewis
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A nice round number, sure, but I think it was chosen because it's a big enough number where you aren't having to reshuffle every battle, but small enough where you don't have to wait out bad results too often.

In the 2-player games I've played, in all but the heaviest card-drawing years, the 30 cards seem to be just the right amount; by the time fall comes around, it's just about empty most of the time.
 
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Eric Kuha
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ngoike wrote:
YancyS wrote:
BTW, the fate deck is one of the reasons why this game is so great even for non-gamers. I don't think that people here give non-geeks enough credit. This is NOT an overly complicated game and most people will understand the fate deck very quickly and how the orders work and supremacy bonuses, etc. It is a LOT more streamlined than TI3. I would never dream of forcing TI3 on non-gamers. But I would not hesitate to suggest runewars.


Not sure I follow your reasoning. How exactly does the fate deck simplify Runewars vs Twilight Imperium? Combat in TI may be a dicefest, but so was Risk. How does replacing that with cards change the complexity?



I'm saying that the the card system is not overly complicated for non-gamers to pick up quickly and the game as a whole is far less complicated than TI3. I apologize, as I can see I wasn't that clear in my initial comments.

The point is, there is absolutely no reason that even a non-gamer can grasp the fate card model. It's not overly complicated since all one needs to do is flip through the fate deck discard to see if any success cards have been drawn yet to decide whether or not to risk diplomacy.

Personally, I like to bring in a big army to attempt diplomacy anyway (especially if it's a lot of heavy-hitting neutrals) just in case the negotiations go awry.
 
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