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Subject: Battle Hardened on Time/Reinforcement track? rss

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Bartow Riggs
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1) Can Battle Hardened - which gives a unit veteran status - be played on a unit on the time track? It became an issue because right after I (barely) exited a unit and the event came up. I wanted to play it on that unit - and that unit was on the next space on the time track.

I asked around before posting and we noted rule 7.2.1 and E44.1 (lose the veteran marker when exiting) and Rich Pardoe mentioned 8.1.1 (says no more than one veteran marker on a unit "in play")

But the rule says "player selects one of his units" to become veteran. It does not say that unit has to be on the map at that instance. Do we follow the exact wording (the "motto") here as usual? If so then you can Battle Harden a unit that is about to come in?

It really only became an issue because the unit _just_ barely made it off the map. Otherwise I never would have even thought of it. I also remember reading in the rules that the unit that "returns" is a completely new unit but that too does not preclude that unit from being a veteran. (Battle hardened somewhere else presumably.)

So does the "motto" apply?
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David desJardins
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BartowWing wrote:
1) Can Battle Hardened - which gives a unit veteran status be played on a unit on the time track?


No. Neither can you play it on a unit that's still in the box, hoping it will be selected as a reinforcement on a future turn.

Quote:
So does the "motto" apply?


I am not quite sure how "the motto" applies, but "your units" are the ones that are in play on the map.
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Bartow Riggs
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Sigh. Yes David. I realize it can't be placed on a unit in the box.

Jeez.
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Chadwik
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Units on the Time Track or Casualty Track are not in play for purposes of placing Veteran and Suppressed markers, among other things.
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Bartow Riggs
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Thank you Chad.
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Charles Stevens
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Units on the Time Track or Casualty Track are not in play for purposes of placing Veteran and Suppressed markers, among other things.


I could not find the rule that makes this clear. Could you elaborate what the other things are?

Thanks
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If I ever get to play David I'm going to insist I can play a vet marker on his cat.
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Chadwik
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Slapshot12 wrote:
I could not find the rule that makes this clear. Could you elaborate what the other things are?

There is no specific rule that states: "only units on the map are in play". Didn't think I needed one. Units on the Track Display can't break or suppress; they can't deploy or become Veteran; they can't be activated for an order or Op Fire; they have no stacking limit; they can't carry a weapon; etc. -- nothing can affect a unit on the Track Display unless a rule or card effect specifically allows it.

References:

Rule 6.1.2, step 5, concerning units on the Time Track says: "...the owning player brings them into play..." indicating that while on the Time Track they are not in play.

Rule 8.1.1 says that only units in play can have a Veteran marker, Suppressed marker or Weapon attached.

The "removal" section of rule E44.1 says: "...unless and until the unit is eliminated or exits the map...", both of which are impossible to do to a unit on the Time Track (only a unit on the map can be eliminated or exit that map).

Heck, all effects of a Veteran marker are useless if on any unit not on the map.

Good to go?

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Charles Stevens
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Slapshot12 wrote:
I could not find the rule that makes this clear. Could you elaborate what the other things are?

There is no specific rule that states: "only units on the map are in play". Didn't think I needed one. Units on the Track Display can't break or suppress; they can't deploy or become Veteran; they can't be activated for an order or Op Fire; they have no stacking limit; they can't carry a weapon; etc. -- nothing can affect a unit on the Track Display unless a rule or card effect specifically allows it.

References:

Rule 6.1.2, step 5, concerning units on the Time Track says: "...the owning player brings them into play..." indicating that while on the Time Track they are not in play.

Rule 8.1.1 says that only units in play can have a Veteran marker, Suppressed marker or Weapon attached.

The "removal" section of rule E44.1 says: "...unless and until the unit is eliminated or exits the map...", both of which are impossible to do to a unit on the Time Track (only a unit on the map can be eliminated or exit that map).

Heck, all effects of a Veteran marker are useless if on any unit not on the map.

Good to go?



Thanks for the answer, my problem was not with the in play part but with the application of two rules:
Pg 3 "In Combat Commander,
the motto “a rule means exactly what it
says” should be the order of the day. In
other words, as quoted from another fine
game, Totaler Krieg!: “Do not infer or
imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
When in doubt, interpret strictly”."

and the rule for Battle Hardening pg 18:
"When this Event occurs, the receiving player
selects one of his units without a Veteran
marker and places a Veteran marker on it."

This rule does not distinguish if the unit is on the reinforcement track or the map. Perhaps adding the words "in play" after his and before units would help.

Thanks for your help.
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Chadwik
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Quote:
Thanks for the answer, my problem was not with the in play part but with the application of two rules:
Pg 3 "In Combat Commander,
the motto a rule means exactly what it
says should be the order of the day. In
other words, as quoted from another fine
game, Totaler Krieg!: Do not infer or
imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
When in doubt, interpret strictly."


Indeed, but you forgot to quote the remainder of this section:

"...these rules cannot possibly hope to cover the myriad situations that may arise during game play -- so in those instances when an oddball situation surfaces, a healthy dose of common sense coupled with an existing rule or two should suffice to see you through."
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Bartow Riggs
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Yes.

Essentially my question concerned if the "motto" applies. In this case apparently it does not. That is good enough for me.

I asked 4 other people my question before I posted here. All have played quite a bit. 2 players said "interpret literally" and apply the motto. One said he would be inclined to _not_ interpret literally in this case. One said to not interpret literally but nothing specifically prohibits it. So it was 2-2 in opinions from experienced players and I posted here.

That is what questions are for right? Chad clarified. Done deal.



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Charles Stevens
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the answer, my problem was not with the in play part but with the application of two rules:
Pg 3 "In Combat Commander,
the motto a rule means exactly what it
says should be the order of the day. In
other words, as quoted from another fine
game, Totaler Krieg!: Do not infer or
imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
When in doubt, interpret strictly."


Indeed, but you forgot to quote the remainder of this section:

"...these rules cannot possibly hope to cover the myriad situations that may arise during game play -- so in those instances when an oddball situation surfaces, a healthy dose of common sense coupled with an existing rule or two should suffice to see you through."


I guess so. But I thought I was using common sense to apply the part that I did quote ie common sense coupled with the rules as written. The rule for Battle Hardening is quoted correctly or have I forgotten something there too?

Thanks again for your answers, I just wonder how much of this game I have been playing incorrectly by interpreting strictly.

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David Lanphear
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Chad Jensen wrote:
....they can't carry a weapon; etc. -- nothing can affect a unit on the Track Display unless a rule or card effect specifically allows it.


7.2.1 Voluntary Exit allows a unit to keep any weapon it exits with right? Never had this happen but I'd assume one would keep it with the unit on the time track. The proverbial exception to any rule as noted in your post.

Chad Jensen wrote:

Rule 8.1.1 says that only units in play can have a Veteran marker, Suppressed marker or Weapon attached.


Ummmm no it doesn't (ducks and runs).

8.1.1 Unit Markers: Each unit in play may have a maximum of one of each of the following markers stacked upon it:

Suppressed
Veteran
Weapon (any unit may carry any Weapon)

(ducks and runs again).

I'm good and I'm going....... (runs away).gulp
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David desJardins
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BartowWing wrote:
Essentially my question concerned if the "motto" applies. In this case apparently it does not.


You should apply the rule exactly as written. And the rule exactly as written only lets you assign Veteran markers to your units, i.e., the ones that are on the map and under your command.

The words "your units" are not precisely defined anywhere in the rules, so you need to apply ordinary comprehension to determine what they mean. To the extent that there are two equally reasonable definitions that could apply, you need to choose one based on context. Rules are written in English, not in a precise formal syntax.
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Bartow Riggs
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DaviddesJ wrote:
BartowWing wrote:
Essentially my question concerned if the "motto" applies. In this case apparently it does not.


You should apply the rule exactly as written. And the rule exactly as written only lets you assign Veteran markers to your units, i.e., the ones that are on the map and under your command.

The words "your units" are not precisely defined anywhere in the rules, so you need to apply ordinary comprehension to determine what they mean. To the extent that there are two equally reasonable definitions that could apply, you need to choose one based on context. Rules are written in English, not in a precise formal syntax.


As I mentioned other players had varying opinions. I'll be sure to give yours, David, all the consideration it is due.

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Bartow Riggs
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StocktonDave wrote:
Chad Jensen wrote:
....they can't carry a weapon; etc. -- nothing can affect a unit on the Track Display unless a rule or card effect specifically allows it.


7.2.1 Voluntary Exit allows a unit to keep any weapon it exits with right? Never had this happen but I'd assume one would keep it with the unit on the time track. The proverbial exception to any rule as noted in your post.

Chad Jensen wrote:

Rule 8.1.1 says that only units in play can have a Veteran marker, Suppressed marker or Weapon attached.


Ummmm no it doesn't (ducks and runs).

8.1.1 Unit Markers: Each unit in play may have a maximum of one of each of the following markers stacked upon it:

Suppressed
Veteran
Weapon (any unit may carry any Weapon)

(ducks and runs again).

I'm good and I'm going....... (runs away).gulp


Yes I noticed that and was going to mention it but really I just wanted my question answered. And it has been.
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David Lanphear
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David D.,

If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine.

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David desJardins
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StocktonDave wrote:
David D.,

If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine.


Sounds good to me. I suggest the next time you draw this Event you put your Veteran marker on one of the units on Bartow's time track. Hope you don't have to drive too far.
 
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David Lanphear
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DaviddesJ wrote:
StocktonDave wrote:
David D.,

If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine.


Sounds good to me. I suggest the next time you draw this Event you put your Veteran marker on one of the units on Bartow's time track. Hope you don't have to drive too far.


Why would I do that? The rules specifically say one of MY units. Those are his units... I'm confused I thought you understood English....

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Charles Stevens
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StocktonDave wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
StocktonDave wrote:
David D.,

If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine.


Sounds good to me. I suggest the next time you draw this Event you put your Veteran marker on one of the units on Bartow's time track. Hope you don't have to drive too far.


Why would I do that? The rules specifically say one of MY units. Those are his units... I'm confused I thought you understood English....



lol,Maybe put control markers on your units on the reinforcement track, just to keep it straight you understand.

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David desJardins
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StocktonDave wrote:
If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine.


StocktonDave wrote:
The rules specifically say one of MY units. Those are his units...


The units on his time track aren't my units. So, per your statement, they must be yours. I'm just sticking to the "strict interpretation".

Quote:
I'm confused I thought you understood English....


Sometimes it's hard to tell who does.
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David Lanphear
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DaviddesJ wrote:
The units on his time track aren't my units. So, per your statement, they must be yours. I'm just sticking to the "strict interpretation".


When did we agree to this stipulation?

Btw there is only one time track, it's neither his nor yours. Unless you are assuming he owned the game, then you might argue that it really was his time track because of ownership.

DaviddesJ wrote:
Sometimes it's hard to tell who does.


Not for most people.
 
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David desJardins
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StocktonDave wrote:
When did we agree to this stipulation?


I'm sorry. You posted the statement, "If those units on the time track aren't yours then they must be mine." So I thought you would agree with your own statement. But maybe not.
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Russ Williams
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Rule 8.1.1 says that only units in play can have a Veteran marker, Suppressed marker or Weapon attached.

Well, as Stocktondave pointed out later, it actually only says that units in play can have those. It doesn't say that other units can't.

And that's not just nitpicking, since in fact units on the time track can ALSO can have weapons, right? Rule 7.2.1 (Voluntary exit) says "The unit retrains possession of any weapon it was carrying."

So if it were true that only units in play can have weapons, that would imply that units on the time track are "in play", which would settle the debate right there...

On the other hand, it seems clear that units on the time track are not "in play" since they are brought "into play" when the time marker reaches them, according to Rule 6.1.2 (Time marker advancement).

Rule 6.1.2 (Time marker advancement) says "if there are one or more units in the space now occupied by the Time marker, the owning player(s) brings them into play as reinforcements..."

So it seems clear that units on the time track are owned (they have "owning player(s)".)

The Battle Hardened event doesn't talk about "in play", it just says "the receiving player selects one of his units without a Veteran marker and places a Veteran marker on it." And some of "his units" can be on the time track, according to 6.1.2.

So I think BartowWing's original question was fair and legitimate. Applying the "motto", we see from Rule 6.1.2 that units on the time track in fact do belong to the players, and we see that Battle Hardened can be applied to any of a player's units. That seems like it settles the question, reading the rules literally with no extra interpretation, doesn't it?

(Note that rule 7.2.1 does not forbid units on the time track from having veteran status. It only says that they lose veteran status when they are placed on the time track. It doesn't say anything about whether they might acquire veteran status later for some reason.)

Quote:
"...a healthy dose of common sense coupled with an existing rule or two should suffice to see you through..."

Unfortunately common sense often doesn't suffice (otherwise one wouldn't need to try writing rules so carefully!) And indeed this thread shows that different people have different "common sense" ideas or interpretations of such situations.

Indeed, since Rule 6.1.2 makes clear that units on the time track are owned, I'm not even sure why this is considered one of the uncovered cases where "common sense" needs to be applied - as literally written, it actually seems clear that the rules imply that you can put "veteran" on your unit on the time track.

Please don't misunderstand: I think the CC rules are much better than most rules for a wargame of this complexity, and I greatly admire them for that. But still, there are murky corners and glitches. I don't mean that as a slam, just as an observation that it really is hard to write 100% clear rules for a game of this complexity.
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Russ Williams
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I just noticed that the CC FAQ explicitly says "Any piece on the track display is already "in play" (along with everything on the map)", so it still seems like the official ruling in this thread is at odds with rules and FAQ as written... ?
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