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Subject: Who owns the minefield? rss

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Dan C
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Probably a dumb question... I have yet to play with the minefields, but was wondering:

Rules say
Quote:
If the unit entering the Minefield is a friendly unit (i.e. a unit that belongs to
the player who laid the Minefield down)


So where in the scenarios does it say which player "owns" the minefield and lays them down? I've skimmed over a few minefield scenarios and haven't seen it specified...?
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brian
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If it isn't clear in the setup, you may need to read the historical background. It should be pretty clear as I have played many games with minefields and there has never been a question as to who owns them.
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Dan C
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I just got the Terrain Pack and Eastern Front and they don't seem to specify in the special rules. However, I just read the .pdf manuals online of Pacific Theater and Med Theater - they do specify in the special rules who lays them down.

So I suppose you are right on TP and EF - I'll study the historical background to determine the minefield owner.
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Mik Svellov
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jedimusic wrote:
I just got the Terrain Pack and Eastern Front and they don't seem to specify in the special rules.

Interesting!
It has taken 5 years for someone to ask this question, but it is a very good one!
While it should be clear to any seasoned veteran that minefields belong to the defender, it really should be more clearly stated in the scenarios since the game is a great game for beginners into the wargame world.
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Stig Morten
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It is not specified in the rulebooks that came with the Eastern front or Terrain pack expansions which player lays the minefields, but this was changed in the Airpack.
In the scenario special rules for the Airpack scenarios it states which players lay out the minefields.

If you don't have the Airpack this might help.

Across the River Roesr from Terrain pack : Axis lays the minefields.

Red Barricades and Ponyri scenarios from Eastern Front : Russian lays the minefields.

You can also find the m online at Daysofwonder.com

Stig Morten
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René Christensen
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I don't suppose mines can see if the foot stepping on the mine is an allied or an axis foot???
So I would say any unit entering a minefield is a target.
But perhaps one of the sides know where the landmines are put and don't go in there (I know you can see the mine tokens)!
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Dan C
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Quote:
But perhaps one of the sides know where the landmines are put and don't go in there (I know you can see the mine tokens)!


Yes minefield maps are common for the side that lays them. (I remember a MASH episode that had that as a big plot point)
 
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Seth Owen
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jedimusic wrote:
Quote:
But perhaps one of the sides know where the landmines are put and don't go in there (I know you can see the mine tokens)!


Yes minefield maps are common for the side that lays them. (I remember a MASH episode that had that as a big plot point)


Indeed, minefield maps are required by doctrine for obvious reasons. Naturally there's often difficulty getting the word out, maps get lost, units redeploy and fail to hand the map over to the next unit occupying the position, etc., so "friendly fire" casualties are a real danger. This is one reason why minefields are generally clearly marked. (Which, in turn, provides an opportunity for the tactic of a dummy minefield.)
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Mik Svellov
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Slotracer wrote:
I don't suppose mines can see if the foot stepping on the mine is an allied or an axis foot???
So I would say any unit entering a minefield is a target.

However, that is not what the rules say:
Quote:
If the unit entering the Minefield is a friendly unit (ie a unit that belongs to the player who laid the Minefield down), the unit must still stop, but will ignore the Minefield, never revealing it, if hidden, nor rolling dice.
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brain machine
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Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?
 
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brian
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brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.
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brain machine
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.
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Bart de Groot
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brainmachine wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.

I think you are looking too much into this one word, draw. Eastern Front rules say:
Minefields are set up on the board at the same time as terrain hexes. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up. Mix the pieces. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.

Look at the last piece there:
"...their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view."

When you are done placing the minefield all the minefield pieces remaining have to still stay hidden from both players like the placed minefield pieces. Seems clear enough to me. Nobody looks at them.

Sure the owning player would know how many mines are placed in the field, but they would not know the effectiveness. How many mines would be tripped, if they would blow, casualty numbers, etc.
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Mik Svellov
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brainmachine wrote:
FAQ is very poor about minefields.

That's because, until now players have not had any questions about it. We have just followed the rules as written in the expansion rulebooks.
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brian
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brainmachine wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.

That wouldn't make much sense. Why not just place them directly? Each expansion comes with 5 mines (with the exception of the 10 in terrain). What so most scenarios use? All 5? Why would you randomly draw what you already know? This method would only work if the scenario calls for less mines than what you have or if you mixed all the expansions together. But the rules don't really account for that on an independent expansion level.

The intent is that no one knows what the strength is until the opponent exposes it. it is only exposed by tripping it or using an engineer to clear it.

But you are free to play how you want. It could add a level of strategy on where to place units to defend weaker mine fields and add some additional bluffing.
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brain machine
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.

That wouldn't make much sense. Why not just place them directly? Each expansion comes with 5 mines (with the exception of the 10 in terrain). What so most scenarios use? All 5? Why would you randomly draw what you already know? This method would only work if the scenario calls for less mines than what you have or if you mixed all the expansions together. But the rules don't really account for that on an independent expansion level.

The intent is that no one knows what the strength is until the opponent exposes it. it is only exposed by tripping it or using an engineer to clear it.

But you are free to play how you want. It could add a level of strategy on where to place units to defend weaker mine fields and add some additional bluffing.


We ask this question before to play a jdrommel scenario (he writes official scenarios, right?) called [Desert War] Marsa El Brega. It includes 10 mines with a special rule about minefields: The Allied player lays out the minefield.

We think we go to play it with the allied player checking minefields before to plant them. If it is not a official rule, we will play it like that as a variant. It is more realistic (usually you have maps of your own minefields) and it adds a level of new and interesting strategy.
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brian
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brainmachine wrote:
We ask this question before to play a jdrommel scenario (he writes official scenarios, right?) called [Desert War] Marsa El Brega. It includes 10 mines with a special rule about minefields: The Allied player lays out the minefield.

He creates scenarios that have been officially approved. But my point is if you just bought Eastern Front, you would have only 5 mines. If a scenario has 5 mines, what would be the point of randomly drawing them if you can still place them where ever you want? The expansion rules are written independently (for the most part) from other expansions. So as a self contained unit, the instructions would just say "place the mines face down where ever you want" instead of randomly drawing them.
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brain machine
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bdegroot wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.

I think you are looking too much into this one word, draw. Eastern Front rules say:
Minefields are set up on the board at the same time as terrain hexes. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up. Mix the pieces. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.

Look at the last piece there:
"...their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view."

When you are done placing the minefield all the minefield pieces remaining have to still stay hidden from both players like the placed minefield pieces. Seems clear enough to me. Nobody looks at them.

Sure the owning player would know how many mines are placed in the field, but they would not know the effectiveness. How many mines would be tripped, if they would blow, casualty numbers, etc.


EF rules are clear about unused minefield pieces, but not a about used minefields. MM'44 rules (expansion rules, FAQ, Terrain 29 card) don't say owner player can see them, but they don't say he can't see them.
I think it needs a answer in the next FAQs.

Maybe we thought you can see them because Terrain 29 card says minefields with 0 strenght are decoys, then, it wouldn't make much sense you don't know where your decoys are.
 
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Bart de Groot
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brainmachine wrote:
bdegroot wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
Ownership of mines includes you can see the mines' value before to lay down them?

No. They are placed randomly and only revelaed once triggered.


Rules says draw at random, not they are placed randomly.

I think rules are not clear about. Terrain 29 card says: Draw at random from all minefields counters available and set up by controlling side before start of battle.

I think it is possible you draw minefields at random, you see them before to lay them down and then you choose the place of every minefield following a concrete scenario. It is not unrealistic, but I'm not sure if rules allow that. I don't know a official answer about. FAQ is very poor about minefields.

I think you are looking too much into this one word, draw. Eastern Front rules say:
Minefields are set up on the board at the same time as terrain hexes. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up. Mix the pieces. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.

Look at the last piece there:
"...their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view."

When you are done placing the minefield all the minefield pieces remaining have to still stay hidden from both players like the placed minefield pieces. Seems clear enough to me. Nobody looks at them.

Sure the owning player would know how many mines are placed in the field, but they would not know the effectiveness. How many mines would be tripped, if they would blow, casualty numbers, etc.


EF rules are clear about unused minefield pieces, but not a about used minefields. MM'44 rules (expansion rules, FAQ, Terrain 29 card) don't say owner player can see them, but they don't say he can't see them.
I think it needs a answer in the next FAQs.

Maybe we thought you can see them because Terrain 29 card says minefields with 0 strenght are decoys, then, it wouldn't make much sense you don't know where your decoys are.


Let's have another look what it says:
1. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up.
-> pieces face up (numbered side down) for all players here
2. Mix the pieces.
-> shuffling them around, nobody is looking
3. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario.
-> it says place face up, the piece was face up, it doesn't say "have a look"
4. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.
-> not looking at those either

I can't see how this text can be confusing. Nowhere does it say the owner can look. At all stages of placement the pieces are face up (numbered side hidden).
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brian
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brainmachine wrote:
Maybe we thought you can see them because Terrain 29 card says minefields with 0 strenght are decoys, then, it wouldn't make much sense you don't know where your decoys are.

Your troops "know" where everything is by them not triggering it when they go over it. You don't know. The note about the decoy is just to clarify it gets discarded as soon as it is revealed so people don't come up with goofy questions about trying to still roll dice for it somehow.

I really don't think it needs an FAQ answer. Bart pointed it our where the minefields' values remain hidden from both players. I don't see any ambiguity in that point. Many many people have played the game for many years and this hasn't been an issue in understanding.
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brian
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bdegroot wrote:
Let's have another look what it says:
1. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up.
-> pieces face down for all players here
2. Mix the pieces.
-> shuffling them around, nobody is looking
3. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario.
-> it says place face up, the piece was face up, it doesn't say "have a look"
4. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.
-> not looking at those either

I can't see how this text can be confusing. Nowhere does it say the owner can look. At all stages of placement the pieces are face up (numbered side hidden).

Careful on your terminology. You are mixing it up I think.

also, "face-up" in this context means the common land mine picture. Most of us would consider "face-up" the value as being exposed. Which might be the source of confusion.
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brain machine
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
brainmachine wrote:
We ask this question before to play a jdrommel scenario (he writes official scenarios, right?) called [Desert War] Marsa El Brega. It includes 10 mines with a special rule about minefields: The Allied player lays out the minefield.

He creates scenarios that have been officially approved. But my point is if you just bought Eastern Front, you would have only 5 mines. If a scenario has 5 mines, what would be the point of randomly drawing them if you can still place them where ever you want? The expansion rules are written independently (for the most part) from other expansions. So as a self contained unit, the instructions would just say "place the mines face down where ever you want" instead of randomly drawing them.


You are right if you have only 5 minefileds, but rules are for all players, not for players only with EF expansion. If you have some expansion more and you have 10 or more minefields and you go to play a scenario with 5-9 minefields it makes sense you have to draw them at random.

 
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brain machine
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bdegroot wrote:

3. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario.
-> it says place face up, the piece was face up, it doesn't say "have a look".


Rules are unclear and as I said it needs a FAQ answer because they don't says neither you can't see them, and if you follow usual law rules, that is not forbidden, it's allowed. Besides, realism and common sense say usually you know where your own minefields are. Then, that interpretation is legitimate and logical.

If two interpretations are possible is when a rule needs a FAQ answer.
 
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Bart de Groot
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
bdegroot wrote:
Let's have another look what it says:
1. Before placing any Minefield, set all Minefield pieces with their picture of the land mine face up.
-> pieces face down for all players here
2. Mix the pieces.
-> shuffling them around, nobody is looking
3. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario.
-> it says place face up, the piece was face up, it doesn't say "have a look"
4. Return any unused Minefield pieces to the box, their numerical face still hidden from the players’ view.
-> not looking at those either

I can't see how this text can be confusing. Nowhere does it say the owner can look. At all stages of placement the pieces are face up (numbered side hidden).

Careful on your terminology. You are mixing it up I think.

also, "face-up" in this context means the common land mine picture. Most of us would consider "face-up" the value as being exposed. Which might be the source of confusion.

Yes, it's the habit of "face down" with the value being on the face. Of course it should be "face up" there.
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Bart de Groot
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brainmachine wrote:
bdegroot wrote:

3. Now place one Minefield piece, selected at random, face up (numbered side hidden) on each Minefield hex indicated by the scenario.
-> it says place face up, the piece was face up, it doesn't say "have a look".


Rules are unclear and as I said it needs a FAQ answer because they don't says neither you can't see them, and if you follow usual law rules, that is not forbidden, it's allowed. Besides, realism and common sense say usually you know where your own minefields are. Then, that interpretation is legitimate and logical.

If two interpretations are possible is when a rule needs a FAQ answer.

I am quoting the "usual law rules" as they are written. I am tired of people defending their interpretation of board game rules as being "common sense" shake. I have already posted twice above now why in this game your interpretation is not common sense at all. This is a board game, it abstracts things, it is not a simulation. You don't know the value because you don't know the effectiveness of the minefield.

There is nothing unclear about the rules as written in the Eastern Front expansion. You are arguing that the summary of those rules as written on compendium terrain card 29 somehow introduce new concepts. "Drawn randomly" and "set up" somehow twisted into pick and choose.

If the rules don't explicitly say you can't look, then you can, you say? As an example I refer to set up step 11 in the base game rules on p5:
11 - Place the remainder of the deck face down, alongside the board’s battlefield, within easy reach of both players.
It says place the remainder of the deck face down. That means by your logic that unless the FAQ says I can't look at the cards first, I can! I am sure I can find lots more games that will soon need FAQs if you reason this way...

If during all steps of the procedure the numbered sides are hidden from everybody, and it doesn't say anywhere "take a look". Why would you then think you are allowed to look? As brian says, nobody has ever found this to be a problem before, that is why there is nothing in the FAQ about it. It's not a frequently asked question.
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