Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

Mahjong» Forums » Rules

Subject: Why not use a D4 and a D18 instead of five D6 in setup? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Johan Andersson
Sweden
flag msg tools
Hi

Is there any reason why I should use two D6 (6 sided dice) to dertermin starting wall and then roll tree D6 to determin the starting point on this wall.

I have made a D4 and a D18. These together would generate a perfect randomization for the startup.

Is there any reason why I should use the old way when I have the new option?

PS. The option Tradition is not an acceptable answer :-) DS.

Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Hm? You roll 2d6 to determine the player whose wall is broken, then add another 2d6 to determine at what spot.

This gives you any number between 4 and 24.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
And while I'm on the topic:

using a d4 to choose the player might work, sure, but the d18 certainly wouldn't.

First: with 3d6 you roll between 3 and 18, not 1 and 18.

Secondly: the distribution is COMPLETELY different.

With 1d18, the probability for each result is 1/18.

With 3d6, which have a bell curve distribution, you are more likely to get any of the median results than any of the outliers (whose chance is 1/216).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikko Saari
Finland
flag msg tools
http://www.lautapeliopas.fi/ - the best Finnish board game resource!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gschmidl wrote:
Secondly: the distribution is COMPLETELY different.


Then again, the even D18 distribution might actually be better for this purpose, as it would distribute the starting points more equally among the wall.

Not a bad idea, I think.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does this really matter?

All you are seeking to do is ensure that there is a random start point somewhere in the wall. Most likely introduced to reduce the risk of cheating in what often is a gambling game!!

I say use whatever you want to get to that random point, For me I grew up with "tradition" and that is where I will stay.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Lott
United States
Bellingham
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Because most people don't have D4's and D18's sitting around. Hell I don't own a D18!

And because it's just a bit of random, to block against cheating more than anything else.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunther Schmidl
Austria
Linz
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
msaari wrote:
gschmidl wrote:
Secondly: the distribution is COMPLETELY different.


Then again, the even D18 distribution might actually be better for this purpose, as it would distribute the starting points more equally among the wall.

Not a bad idea, I think.


Right, except it's 2d6 + 2d6 by Chinese tradition

Seriously, I don't think it matters for the game whether you use a d2, d18, d20, or d100. d18 is certainly not the same as 3d6, though, hence my post.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dicky P
United Kingdom
West
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
masaakunokouchi wrote:
Because most people don't have D4's and D18's sitting around. Hell I don't own a D18!

And because it's just a bit of random, to block against cheating more than anything else.


Is this a response to my post?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johan Andersson
Sweden
flag msg tools
What I mean is:
Using the dice (2+2 or 2+3 D6) is to ensure randomness, right?
(To avoid cheating when creating the walls, i can imagine)

If you roll several dice you will get a "Normal distribution", as have been said earlyer.
a "Normal distribution curve" is easier to predict because the numbers close to the center of the range is nore likley to come up
(the center is max_sum/(amount_of_dice*2))

If you nstead use my suggestion you will get a "Uniform distribution" witch is impossile to make any predictions from.

Another positive thing with "my way" is that you dont have to bother with math (adding).
And you never have to count several turns to get the starting wall (if you roll 5+6 for example. for us peole who have not played so mych thet we know it by heart :-)


So my queston is realy:
Is the dice only used to create ranomness, thus minimising the posibility of cheating?
And, Is there any reson to choose the less randon "Normal distribution" (multiple D6) when you can use a superior "Uniform distribution" to create randomnes?


Is it just so that the good people of Hong Kong, 150 years ago, haven't invented any other dice than a D6, and then kept using it (Tradition)?


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Kandrac
United States
Grand Prairie
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I like d6s because...

...nothing else would fit in that little slot in the middle of my Riichi set!






Gg
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The arrangement of the tiles is random, so it really doesn't matter where you start. The random starting point is just tradition or I guess to prevent cheating, but if someone was going to cheat, they still have an advantage just by knowing the arrangement of the tiles even if you start some place randomly.

The only reason to go to great lengths to randomize the starting position is if the tiles are not randomly distributed for whatever reason, which shouldn't happen. You could frankly start in the same place every time, or even choose exactly where you want to start, and it wouldn't matter as long as the wall was prepared randomly.

So yeah, you could use a d4 and a d18 if you wanted, but it's not necessary at all. Reminds me of a time I was playing a different game with my friend and he wanted to deal a random character to each person, so he turned the characters face down, mixed them all, set them out face down, and then rolled a die to determine which character was picked by each person. If he was going to roll a die, mixing them up was completely unnecessary. Random is random!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DrMys wrote:

Is the dice only used to create ranomness, thus minimising the posibility of cheating?
And, Is there any reson to choose the less randon "Normal distribution" (multiple D6) when you can use a superior "Uniform distribution" to create randomnes?

A: Yes. The wall can be stacked by skilled hands. There are some excellent videos on YouTube.
B: Reason 1: "Normal" isn't less random than "Uniform," nor is one better than the other. Moving the break in the wall even one stack completely changes the initial hands. 1d4 would probably be enough (3d2, anyone?).
Reasons 2a,b,c: d6 are cheaper to make, and tradition, and written into the rules.

That being said, I've seen one place sell a d12 for the purpose of breaking the wall.

Oh! And some styles use 17 stacks in each wall (Riichi, Zung Jung), some 18 (MCR, CC, HKOS, etc.), some 19 (American), and some more than that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
WAN CHIU
United States
Arcadia
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
LOL I don't think D4 and D18 was invented when people start playing Mahjong.

Why don't they use machine gun to fight battles in medieval times?



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't have anything against using other type of dices. However, I can't seem to accept a D18 as a valid dice.


I may be nit picking, but for me the faces must all be perfectly indentical to be worthy of the dice title. D2, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12 and D20 all satisfy this requirements and are used in a variaty of games. Unless you can find a bipyramidal D18. That would be technicly ok, but I can't say that I'm a fan of high numbered bipyramidal dices. It gets rediculious at some points. I'm fine with D10 because the face have a decent width/height ratio.

On the other hand, D4 and a D12 would be fine with me(tradition use 2 and not 3 D6 anyways). That said, I find standare D4 a bit unwieldy for my taste and would rather use a D4 shaped like a D8 if possible (or prehapse a D12 since we are already using one).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kwan
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it is much easier to cheat by controlling the dice throw with D4 and (bipyramidal) D18 than with D6. I don't "trust" D4's.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Kwan wrote:
I think it is much easier to cheat by controlling the dice throw with D4 and (bipyramidal) D18 than with D6. I don't "trust" D4's.

Hmmm... You bring up a very good point. The more dices you have to throw at once, the harder it is to controle the end result. This may be in fact the origin of the 3 D6 setup variant.

However, there is no need for cheat countermeasures in a fun game between friends. Only randomness is require.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kwan
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not just a matter of the number of dice. D4's are IMO not "round" (spherical) enough. They don't "roll" well, and tend to land on the same face as they are tossed. I suggest using d12 or d20 in place of the tetrahedral d4, and this is even more important for other games than (friendly) mahjong, because in other games the dice make a bigger difference.

The dice commonly used in Hong Kong may be very cheaply made, but they have rounded corners and roll very well. In fact, they are actually spheres with six slices cut out to form the six dice faces.

And of course, no need to bother with a d18. Just use a d20. It's not too important that the breaking stack is equiprobable, as long as we get the full variation of possible results. Rolling 2d6 or 3d6 once is bad because you get only a small fraction of the possible results.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yan
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Kwan wrote:
It's not just a matter of the number of dice. D4's are IMO not "round" (spherical) enough. They don't "roll" well, and tend to land on the same face as they are tossed. I suggest using d12 or d20 in place of the tetrahedral d4, and this is even more important for other games than (friendly) mahjong, because in other games the dice make a bigger difference.

I guess we agree on this since I suggested the same thing. However, controling dice throw can be done even if the dices do roll. That is why in casinos the dices need to hit the wall at the end. That wall often have an uneven spiky surface to make this more effective. Not to mention that that wall is quite far away from the player.

It would definatively be much harder to controle a d20, but it is still possible with the right dedication. But if you have to throw say 6 of them at once, controling all 6 of them enter the realm of gods. But there is a limit to the "safty" that people can live with.

If people want safe, have one player roll 2 d6 while the other 3 player roll one each. They roll at the same time with a dice cup and hide the result. Then they reveal the results together. the 2 d6 select the wall while the other 3 select the cut together. That way, even if 3 players gang up on a single one, they still don't controle everything.

Or... you could remove the dices from the players hand entirely. Use a dice programme or any other methode that don't involve dices. Better yet, use an electronic table. If people don't care about absolute cheat countering, then using 2 d20 (one being a d4) should be fine (and somewhat convinient I might add).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jighm Brown
United States
Rossville
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just in answering your question:

There is no reason why you can't use whatever dice you wish.

The reason that the rules are as they are, as someone touched on earlier, is that there were not dice of different numbers of sides when Mahjong was created. They had d6's and so that's what they used.

Jighm
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Providence
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why not follow the "traditional" method for breaking the wall? Do you play with cheats? Can you not trust your opponents? This is bandwidth we'll never get back...shake
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.