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Subject: One attack per player per turn rss

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Mark McG
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We started 2 races last night, and out of 5 chariots, two didn't make it down the first stretch in Game 1, and one didn't in Game 2.

In part this was rampant violence to test the system, but it kind of seemed unlikely more than one chariot would make the 3 laps, or even the first lap!

So I was thinking that a limit of one attack per turn for each player would make it more a race than a demolition derby, and speed up play somewhat.

Any thoughts, problems?
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Brad Miller
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Seems like you are doing something wrong. You can only make one attack per space, and it costs you a movement point. keep in mind that it is a race, not a war. And while it has been a while since I played, that amount of damage in one stretch run seems off. How were the chariots "taken out"?
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Mark McG
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Windopaene wrote:
How were the chariots "taken out"?


Game 1, both flipped out from wheel damage, the first with 6 wheel damage from the actual ram attack, and the 2nd with 4 wheel damage for trying to move 14+ speed. This dice roll was preceeded by the immortal phrase, "only woosies flip out". That 3 never looked so good.

2nd race I recall it being a flip out with something like 8 wheel damage after 2+ ram attacks.

One of the heavy chariots bulldozed down the opening straight making attack after attack. Something like 5 of so at the start of Turn 2. With Straining he had 22 MP.

We may have played the scyths wrong, I need to check that, but not very wrong.
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Minedog3 wrote:


One of the heavy chariots bulldozed down the opening straight making attack after attack. Something like 5 of so at the start of Turn 2. With Straining he had 22 MP.

We may have played the scyths wrong, I need to check that, but not very wrong.


22 move points for a heavy chariot!! I don't understand the 'so' statement. Just because a chariot has made 5 attacks why does it follow that in the following turn...'so...he had 22 mp'. I think something is wrong here.
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steve mizuno
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Minedog3 wrote:
We started 2 races last night, and out of 5 chariots, two didn't make it down the first stretch in Game 1, and one didn't in Game 2.

In part this was rampant violence to test the system, but it kind of seemed unlikely more than one chariot would make the 3 laps, or even the first lap!

So I was thinking that a limit of one attack per turn for each player would make it more a race than a demolition derby, and speed up play somewhat.

Any thoughts, problems?


If you think that's bloody, you should have played the Battleline version. No restriction on the number of attacks per square.

Horses getting sawed off right and left.

Your group is kinda nuts, ya think? Most all of the attacks our group generally makes are on the horsies. Too much chance of bad stuff happening to your own chariot if you're bashing the other guy's chariot. Better to slow him down first and make him an easier target for the guys following you, then you can run away while they all fight each other. And forget lash attacks - I have vivid memories of having my whip ripped out of my grip and used against me.

We generally saved the chariot / chariot stuff for desperation time in the last lap or so. I can remember one classic chariot flip - the owner, Phil, was notorious for his bad luck. Well, his chariot was attacked, and naturally, he flipped - the chariot then landed ON another guy's chariot, taking him out as well. Good times...
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Mark McG
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
Minedog3 wrote:


One of the heavy chariots bulldozed down the opening straight making attack after attack. Something like 5 of so at the start of Turn 2. With Straining he had 22 MP.

We may have played the scyths wrong, I need to check that, but not very wrong.


22 move points for a heavy chariot!! I don't understand the 'so' statement. Just because a chariot has made 5 attacks why does it follow that in the following turn...'so...he had 22 mp'. I think something is wrong here.


sorry, should read
"Something like 5 or so at the start of Turn 2." .. meaning about 5 attacks.

By recall the chariot + driver was Speed 16, and straining was a +6.

I think the attacking the chariot concept is that a heavy chariot (with scyths) will cause more damage, and every wheel has only 10 hit points, and any more than 2 creates a flip risk.So 6 hits is a likely mission kill, whereas 6 horse hits can be made up with straining. But really it is a case of move adjacent, attack chariot, move 1MP forward, attack team (with maybe some evading in between). That's the kind of guys we are...



In game 1, the heavy attacker made the defender flip, and then flipped himself trying to move more than 14.
 
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Minedog3 wrote:

By recall the chariot + driver was Speed 16, and straining was a +6.



Well, in order to have a Heavy Chariot, he had to spend two points on it leaving two to spend. I'm guessing he used them both on Driver?

I'd suggest taking Driver +2, Chariot 0, Horses +1, Endurance +1. Whip the horses EVERY turn until you get so far ahead that he can't catch up. Of course, if he is doing the same he will probably get in some attacks at first but he'll likely burn through endurance quickly. With the same Driver skill, you should avoid attacks more often than take them due to the fact that you win all ties when attempting to brake or evade.

The game is pretty balanced as far as spending your points. If there is any one item that is favored over another, it is Driver. I have never seen anyone win a game with Driver 0 and it is a rare day that I take Driver 1 instead of Driver 2. Too many rolls depend on your Driver skill and you also get a boost in your speed from it as well.

Again, my advice would be to take Driver 2, Chariot 0, Endurance 1, and Horses 1. If you get some good rolls for Endurance/Horses and get some good pulls to move first, you can outpace/avoid the Gangster player who will have slow horses and weak endurance.

Otherwise, take Driver 2 and Chariot 2 and kill him before he kills you !!!!!
 
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Mark McG
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kjamma4 wrote:
Minedog3 wrote:

By recall the chariot + driver was Speed 16, and straining was a +6.



Well, in order to have a Heavy Chariot, he had to spend two points on it leaving two to spend. I'm guessing he used them both on Driver?

!!!!!


Chariot 2 Driver 1 Speed 1 I think..
but the strategy point is irrelevant. This player moved last in Turn 1 (and managed to catch and attack my Speed 2 light chariot), and then first in Turn 2, blasting through the whole field. If the chit pull had favoured me, I'd have been off, but by the time my chit came up I'd lost 4 points of wheel and 6 off the horses (and braked as well). OTOH, I never flipped, so that's not the issue.

However, the point isn't really about a single player, attack was the order of the day, and every player (except me in my speedy light chariot) did multiple attacks per turn which resulted in a 40% destruction rate IN THE FIRST STRETCH!

So to return to the question, would limiting each player to one attack per turn be unreasonable?

 
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Steve Bachman
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Minedog3 wrote:
kjamma4 wrote:
Minedog3 wrote:

By recall the chariot + driver was Speed 16, and straining was a +6.



Well, in order to have a Heavy Chariot, he had to spend two points on it leaving two to spend. I'm guessing he used them both on Driver?

!!!!!


Chariot 2 Driver 1 Speed 1 I think..
but the strategy point is irrelevant. This player moved last in Turn 1 (and managed to catch and attack my Speed 2 light chariot), and then first in Turn 2, blasting through the whole field. If the chit pull had favoured me, I'd have been off, but by the time my chit came up I'd lost 4 points of wheel and 6 off the horses (and braked as well). OTOH, I never flipped, so that's not the issue.

However, the point isn't really about a single player, attack was the order of the day, and every player (except me in my speedy light chariot) did multiple attacks per turn which resulted in a 40% destruction rate IN THE FIRST STRETCH!

So to return to the question, would limiting each player to one attack per turn be unreasonable?


Unreasonable? Not if it helps you and your group enjoy the game more I suppose. But it does have a dramatic impact on the game and the strategies in play.

Incidentally, don't the rules stipulate that players use multiple chariots in order to fill up the field to 8 or 10 each race? I don't have the rules in front of me, but I recall that being included.

I take it that during setup the heavy had a great speed roll and the light had an awful one, and during Turn 1 the inertia rolls for the two chariots followed the same pattern. Tough breaks sometimes.
 
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Minedog3 wrote:
Chariot 2 Driver 1 Speed 1 I think..but the strategy point is irrelevant.


I don't agree as your choice and your opponents' choices determine the strategy, but......

Minedog3 wrote:
This player moved last in Turn 1 (and managed to catch and attack my Speed 2 light chariot)


Yep - you have no control over the pull for move order. Additionally, since dice are used to see whether you can brake/evade, they will go against you. However, with your Driver 2 and his Driver 1 and with the fact that you win ties, you will be able to brake/evade more often than not.



Minedog3 wrote:
and then first in Turn 2, blasting through the whole field.


Unless he stopped in Turn 1 directly adjacent to you (or only one square ahead of you), there is no way he could attack you again in Turn 2. Of course that doesn't prevent the rest of the crew dogpiling on you !!!!


Minedog3 wrote:
If the chit pull had favoured me, I'd have been off, but by the time my chit came up I'd lost 4 points of wheel and 6 off the horses (and braked as well).


Chit happens.


Minedog3 wrote:
OTOH, I never flipped, so that's not the issue.

However, the point isn't really about a single player, attack was the order of the day, and every player (except me in my speedy light chariot) did multiple attacks per turn which resulted in a 40% destruction rate IN THE FIRST STRETCH!

So to return to the question, would limiting each player to one attack per turn be unreasonable?



I guess that depends on your definition of unreasonable. Had you run away with the race and none of the heavy carts been able to get you, they might have been posting here asking if it was reasonable to allow MORE attacks.

In my opinion, the rules work pretty well. Dice rolls and turn order pulls are going to go against you but in the long run, I think everything works pretty well. My suggestion is to play a few more games with the rules as is and then see if you want to change them.

Cheers.
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Mark McG
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Ward wrote:

Incidentally, don't the rules stipulate that players use multiple chariots in order to fill up the field to 8 or 10 each race? I don't have the rules in front of me, but I recall that being included.


yeah, though the 10 chariot part is in the advanced rules. (ergo, we hadn't read that far!)

So we had 5 players that had never played it before, and it seemed unreasonable to grant 3 player an extra 'spoiler' chariot, so we elected to play one each to get the gist of the game. Didn't seem to cause any problems, and possibly alleviated a few (since 8 chariots attacking like mad would have upped the destruction).

It just seemed to me that attacks seemed to be predominate over the race. It quickly became a matter of not being the fastest chariot over the course, but being the only surviving chariot.
 
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Mark McG
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kjamma4 wrote:

Unless he stopped in Turn 1 directly adjacent to you (or only one square ahead of you), there is no way he could attack you again in Turn 2.


that's the way it went, I did evade outwards once, but he followed, attacked and we finished side by side.

Far as I can tell, we did all the basic rules right. Not a complicated game, but bloody..
 
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Mark McG
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Minedog3 wrote:
So I was thinking that a limit of one attack per turn for each player would make it more a race than a demolition derby, and speed up play somewhat.


We gave this a go last night, and I thought it worked pretty well, though that was a minority view.

Started with 8 chariots, 2 per player.
One player started with two heavy chariots with +2 CDM drivers (the Panzer chariots) with the expressed strategy of killing every other chariot and then wandering across the finish line. Otherwise it was a mixed field.

Pretty much from the get go, my blue light fast chariot took the lead, and this chariot was blessed with good chit draws and evasion rolls for the entire game.

Otherwise, the opening stretch turned into battleground between my heavy chariot and the tag team panzer chariots. My heavy made it to the first turn, but only just and flipped out (and then dragged the dead driver two laps). The panzer chariots then settled into ambush waiting for the assault on the fast chariots as they lapped them. In the end after some careful cat & mouse and great chit pulls, he couldn't pull this off, and some desultory skirmishing between the other chariots damaged a few wheels and drivers, but we finished 3 laps for a blue win.

So for my purposes, it worked pretty well in that it was actually a race, not a battle. It also meant that Mr Panzer chariots didn't spend hours moving his chariots and pondering every possibility of attack. So we finished the whole race in 3 hours. I think we tried a greater variety of attacks, though chariot ramming was still the most popular (and indeed the panzer chariots never took a hit, and gave out plenty). Lashing the driver became popular, but lashing the enemy horses seemed useless.

The other players weren't as pleased, and in the words of one hardened wargamer, "if you can't kill it, what's the point". Overall, I think it resulted in a faster play, racing game. 7 out of 8 chariots survived to the end, so no player was completely knocked out. Evasion and braking were far more important, since this wasted the chariot's one attack, and this is a key weakness to the 'one attack per turn per chariot rule'.

So I'd look at other alternatives, like change the MP cost for different attacks, 1MP for lash, 4MP for ram, and evasion modifiers (Heavy -2, Light +2). But as a simple rule to speed up play, it worked OK.
 
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Minedog3 wrote:
Started with 8 chariots, 2 per player.

So for my purposes, it worked pretty well in that it was actually a race, not a battle.

So we finished the whole race in 3 hours.

Lashing the driver became popular, but lashing the enemy horses seemed useless.



There is a world of difference in a game having 8 chariots between 4 players and 8 chariots between 8 players (especially if you are basing a win on only one of your chariots). You came in first and had a DNF. To me, that is not really better than everyone else who finished with both teams.

It sounds like the only reason it was a race was that you didn't care about your heavy cart and basically sacrificed it so that your other could run away. Nothing wrong with that but I still wouldn't call that a victory over a guy who had two teams cross the finish line.

In time, a game like this (four players/eight chariots) will probably only take you about 90 minutes to play.

Lashing the driver is risky - if you lose your whip, it can hose your whole game. However, good things may happen.

Lashing the horses is best used on an opponent that is in the corner and has not moved yet - even more so if you can have multiple players gang up on that guy. The endurance loss can be severe.
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I was one of the other players in the game described by Mark McG. It was very enjoyable; probably more so than our earlier attempt without the one attack per turn house rule. This time we also played the Advanced Rules, which slowed us down a bit, but I think that it was worth it for the extra fun factor it provided. Another thing which took a little time was sorting out the lash attack v team procedure, where we got tangled up in the difference between the 1st and 2nd edition rules.

I don't recall that Mark sacrificed his other chariot. It was just the way that things worked out.
 
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Ozgul wrote:
I was one of the other players in the game described by Mark McG. It was very enjoyable; probably more so than our earlier attempt without the one attack per turn house rule.


This is really all that matters. As long as you had fun, then your rule works!!!!




Ozgul wrote:
This time we also played the Advanced Rules, which slowed us down a bit, but I think that it was worth it for the extra fun factor it provided. Another thing which took a little time was sorting out the lash attack v team procedure, where we got tangled up in the difference between the 1st and 2nd edition rules.


Yeah, the different attacks all have different procedures. My recommendation would be to download some of the great files here which have all of them laid out in detail.

Ozgul wrote:
I don't recall that Mark sacrificed his other chariot. It was just the way that things worked out.


Yeah, that stuff happens. However, when playing with two chariots, both results should be "netted" together to determine a winner.
 
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If the variant works for your group that's great. I don't really think its needed.

If a player wants to be subject to only one attack attempt per other player turn then one should brake instead of evade. Of course that's slower but its all part of the trade off.

Limiting attacks to 1 per turn makes heavy chariots very unattractive as usually the heavies chance is to inflict enough damage earlier to slow everyone else down to close to their speed.
 
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Kworth wrote:
If a player wants to be subject to only one attack attempt per other player turn then one should brake instead of evade. Of course that's slower but its all part of the trade off.

Limiting attacks to 1 per turn makes heavy chariots very unattractive as usually the heavies chance is to inflict enough damage earlier to slow everyone else down to close to their speed.


The braking option makes sense, though I immediately think of positioning chariots directly behind others to prevent braking. If braking doesn't work (and with a driver skill of 2 in the Heavy if is a dice chance) then the Heavy can still Ram twice, chariot then the horses.

I guess this brings me back to the original question. What is the normal finish rate in a race? Do 1-3 chariots fail to finish, or we talking about 5-7 fail.
 
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Minedog3 wrote:

I guess this brings me back to the original question. What is the normal finish rate in a race? Do 1-3 chariots fail to finish, or we talking about 5-7 fail.


Ours go about one or two not finishing. Of course you can finish with less than four horses !!!!
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Minedog3 wrote:
I guess this brings me back to the original question. What is the normal finish rate in a race? Do 1-3 chariots fail to finish, or we talking about 5-7 fail.



I ran a race once where 7 of the 8 chariots failed to make it out of the first turn (thanks to a glorious, and never-seen-before-or-since 4 car pileup in the outside lanes) ... so, it can happen.

As for your original question about 1 attack per turn, I've been running Circus Maximus for 20 years at game conventions, and the solution we came up with was that no one was allowed to attack anyone until a certain line is crossed in the 1st lap (in my case, the moment someone enters the first curve ... though we've also used the 'midfield' line for smaller races.) This allows everyone to get out of the gate and a little bit spread out before the combat begins.

One attack per turn is too limiting -- you really need options in case someone is hugging that wall, or a target rich environment suddenly appears late in the race.
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Jape77 wrote:


I ran a race once where 7 of the 8 chariots failed to make it out of the first turn (thanks to a glorious, and never-seen-before-or-since 4 car pileup in the outside lanes) ... so, it can happen.


Yes, whenever I end up flipping there is always the hope that my cart lands on someone else. Unfortunately, for me, it rarely happens.

Jape77 wrote:
As for your original question about 1 attack per turn, I've been running Circus Maximus for 20 years at game conventions, and the solution we came up with was that no one was allowed to attack anyone until a certain line is crossed in the 1st lap (in my case, the moment someone enters the first curve ... though we've also used the 'midfield' line for smaller races.) This allows everyone to get out of the gate and a little bit spread out before the combat begins.


The +2 Driver, +2 Cart would be a really poor choice in this situation. I'd take +2 Driver and either +2 Horses or +1 Horses/+1 Endurance and whip like hell trying to get so far ahead that anyone with a heavy cart couldn't attack.

Jape77 wrote:
One attack per turn is too limiting -- you really need options in case someone is hugging that wall, or a target rich environment suddenly appears late in the race.


Or early in the race. devil
 
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