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Subject: Revealing Their True Nature rss

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Anders Gabrielsson
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Card text:

Quote:
Each hero not matching a player's affiliation deserts him unless he spends 1 influence (or 2 influence if the hero is opposite to his faction's alignment).


1) Is "affiliation" different from "alignment"? I can't find anything about affiliation in the rules.

2) If affiliation is the same as alignment, won't this mean that the player will always have to pay 2 influence to keep the hero (unless they have the same alignment as the player's faction)?

In short, is the card badly worded or am I missing something?
 
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Affiliation is the same as alignment. I'm not sure if the rules say somewhere, but that's what it means.

Basically, there are 3 things that could happen. Let's say you are GOOD, just for this example.

1) If your hero is GOOD, you don't have to worry, he won't desert.
2) If your hero is NEUTRAL, you have to spend 1 influence to keep him. Neutral alignment is not opposite to either alignment.
3) If your hero is EVIL, it is the opposite alignment, so you have to spend 2 influence to keep him.


I hope this helps.
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Nigel Buckle
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It means if you are a good race (white flag) then neutral heroes (green flag) cost 1 influence to keep, evil characters (black flag) 2 influence.

This image:



Shows all the heroes - 4 on the left evil, 4 in the middle neutral, 4 on the right good.

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Stephen Stewart
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1. NO

2. Yes...Read the card. 2 influence if "alignment" is opposite (i.e. Good vs. Evil) or 1 if neutral


AND KEEP IN MIND the card that you have to pay for (one of the 3 special cards) WILL NOT keep the hero from deserting you.
 
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Andrew
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ASLChampion wrote:
1. NO

2. Yes...Read the card. 2 influence if "alignment" is opposite (i.e. Good vs. Evil) or 1 if neutral


AND KEEP IN MIND the card that you have to pay for (one of the 3 special cards) WILL NOT keep the hero from deserting you.


Wait, why wouldn't the card that says "your heroes never desert you" keep your heroes from deserting you?
 
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Scott Lewis
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Um, yeah, the Captain of the Heroes' Guild Title prevents your heroes from deserting you. This would mean that if you are the Captain, you don't need to pay anything for any of your heroes.
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Stephen Stewart
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Um, yeah, the Captain of the Heroes' Guild Title prevents your heroes from deserting you. This would mean that if you are the Captain, you don't need to pay anything for any of your heroes.


That was my argument too during our game. But some of the wording on the cards and rules seem to prove otherwise.

Sounds stupid, but I can see no other reason for having the CAPTAIN title. And the ruling was otherwise. Luckily it wasn't my hero.

Unless there are 2 printings of the cards with some "newer"/older versions being different...

I'll get back you guys on this. I see the card on the geek and it looks obvious they don't desert. Maybe our card is different.
 
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Anders Gabrielsson
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Ah, I had missed that there were neutral heroes. In the test game I've been running all heroes were good or evil.

Thanks for the help!
 
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Scott Lewis
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ASLChampion wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Um, yeah, the Captain of the Heroes' Guild Title prevents your heroes from deserting you. This would mean that if you are the Captain, you don't need to pay anything for any of your heroes.


That was my argument too during our game. But some of the wording on the cards and rules seem to prove otherwise.

Sounds stupid, but I can see no other reason for having the CAPTAIN title. And the ruling was otherwise. Luckily it wasn't my hero.

? I'm completely confused as to the logic behind this. What do you mean "no other reason for having the Captain" title? It specifically says your Heroes do not desert you. Thus, anything that talks about your hero deserting you would be ignored.

I'm completely confused as to why it would be ruled that the Captain card does NOT protect you against the "Revealing their True Nature" card. What good is that part of the Title, then? What cards DOES it protect you from? I am certain this ruling wasn't from Corey.
 
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Andrew
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I assume he means his group ruled that way. Yeah, the season card has the word desert desert in bold italics (like that) meaning that the mechanic being invoked there is... desertion desertion. The Captain of the Heroes' League title card specifically states that your heroes never desert you. That's one of two times that it could ever possibly happen in the game (the other is, possibly, the Coercion tactics card, but I'm not sure that 100% counts).

EDIT: Looked at the card again. It's italics.
 
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Scott Lewis
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wardac wrote:
I assume he means his group ruled that way. Yeah, the season card has the word desert in bold (like that) meaning that the mechanic being invoked there is... desertion. The Captain of the Heroes' League title card specifically states that your heroes never desert you. That's one of two times that it could ever possibly happen in the game (the other is, possibly, the Coercion tactics card, but I'm not sure that 100% counts).

Well, I went ahead and asked Corey, JUST to be sure, so we'll see what he says. But I agree. There are only 3 cards I could find that this Title would even pertain to:

- The 2 copies of Revealing Their True Nature (which is the card this thread is about)
- Coercion.

The latter, like you said, I'm not sure it applies to either, as it doesn't use the term Desert. However, the rulebook says "when a particular Season or Tactics card is resolved", and that's the only Tactics card that even comes close.

It would be kinda cool to have the Title protect against Coercion, as that's a nasty card.
 
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brad poon
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wardac wrote:
I assume he means his group ruled that way. Yeah, the season card has the word desert desert in bold italics (like that) meaning that the mechanic being invoked there is... desertion desertion. The Captain of the Heroes' League title card specifically states that your heroes never desert you. That's one of two times that it could ever possibly happen in the game (the other is, possibly, the Coercion tactics card, but I'm not sure that 100% counts).

EDIT: Looked at the card again. It's italics.


Also a hero can and must desert you if you have more than three at any time , even if you have captain of the heroes' league title. (page 25 of the rules)
 
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Andrew
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I suppose that is another time when heroes would desert you, but since it specifically says it isn't affected by captain of the heroes' league it doesn't really count for this discussion.
 
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David Abel
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wardac wrote:
I suppose that is another time when heroes would desert you, but since it specifically says it isn't affected by captain of the heroes' league it doesn't really count for this discussion.

Yes but the only time the Captain card is mentioned in the rules is that example cited by poondog on page 25. It could be part of the source of confusion as to what card does and doesn't do.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Really, though; if Captain of the Heroes Guild doesn't apply to Revealing Their True Nature, what DOES it apply to?

Unless I'm missing something, there are 3 ways a hero will leave you (other than dying):

1. Revealing their True Nature
2. Coercion (this may or may not count as desertion, question pending to Corey)
3. Having more than 3 heroes

#3 is explicitly exempt from Captain of the Heroes Guild. If #2 isn't considered desertion, and #1 ignores the Captain, then the Captain anti-desertion ability is pointless.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Really, though; if Captain of the Heroes Guild doesn't apply to Revealing Their True Nature, what DOES it apply to?

Unless I'm missing something, there are 3 ways a hero will leave you (other than dying):

1. Revealing their True Nature
2. Coercion (this may or may not count as desertion, question pending to Corey)
3. Having more than 3 heroes

#3 is explicitly exempt from Captain of the Heroes Guild. If #2 isn't considered desertion, and #1 ignores the Captain, then the Captain anti-desertion ability is pointless.



When a publisher italicizes a word or puts it in bold...usually that's a SPECIFIC game reference. Unfortunately, consistency among games isn't there....
Right, unless it allows you to have > 3 heroes. THIS is what it should allow.


Coercion. If coercion, doesn't count as desertion, then you lose the hero.

Pretty much the TITLE is SHIT. The TITLE that breaks ties is WAYYYY more powerful than both of the other TITLES combined!!!!

The seige title will come into play MAYBE once a game... You'd be better off buying another hero looking for RUNES.

The Wizard TITLE card shouldn't BREAK TIES and GET INFLUENCE. Those should be broken up...maybe the CAPTAIN card should get the INFLUENCE. that Way you'll maybe break even on the investment you'd have to make in the first place.

Heroes are easily replaced and at one time it was a benefit to lose a hero...I was at max and had a hero stolen from me. One of my quest cards was close to my homeland and I just bought a hero for 1 influence and completed the QUEST more quickly...So the CAPTAIN is a wimp TITLE.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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drabel wrote:
wardac wrote:
I suppose that is another time when heroes would desert you, but since it specifically says it isn't affected by captain of the heroes' league it doesn't really count for this discussion.

Yes but the only time the Captain card is mentioned in the rules is that example cited by poondog on page 25. It could be part of the source of confusion as to what card does and doesn't do.


NONE of the cards are really referenced in the rules. Only the explanations on the cards themselves is given...

Just read the pg 25 reference....I'm thinking the player should keep the heroes...should be a rule change...

This would allow players getting their asses kicked a chance to make up the Runes not gained by defeating the other heroes in the game and getting Runes that way.

I don't see how this rule change will affect gameplay dramatically.
I think we'll supercede the rules in our next play to see how it plays out.
 
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ASLChampion wrote:

Pretty much the TITLE is SHIT. The TITLE that breaks ties is WAYYYY more powerful than both of the other TITLES combined!!!!


Maybe it would suck if that's all it did. That ability is just icing on the cake, though. The real power of that title is the ability to trade 3 rewards for a Dragon Rune, which is arguably the best ability given by any of the title cards.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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wardac wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:

Pretty much the TITLE is SHIT. The TITLE that breaks ties is WAYYYY more powerful than both of the other TITLES combined!!!!


Maybe it would suck if that's all it did. That ability is just icing on the cake, though. The real power of that title is the ability to trade 3 rewards for a Dragon Rune, which is arguably the best ability given by any of the title cards.


Absolutely, which better reinforces the need for the TITLE to exceed 3 heroes. this would make CAPTAIN a force to pursue and bring another dimension to the game other than just territory control... and allows you to possible make up ground when you are double-teamed by a player and his manipulated ally.

The more heroes the more quests and more rewards...It will stimulate character combat, which we usually don't have in our games.
 
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ASLChampion wrote:
When a publisher italicizes a word or puts it in bold...usually that's a SPECIFIC game reference.

Well, the word "desert" is in intalics on the card - I think that's trying to hint to you that "yes, this is in reference to the desertion rule".

Quote:
Right, unless it allows you to have > 3 heroes. THIS is what it should allow.

So, you are saying it was intended to allow the thing it specifically DOESN'T ALLOW? IE, of the 3 potential meanings of desertion, the one it was intended to allow you to do is the one the rulebook explicitly forbids? That doesn't make any sense at all.


Quote:
Pretty much the TITLE is SHIT. The TITLE that breaks ties is WAYYYY more powerful than both of the other TITLES combined!!!!

I disagree. I won my last game because of the Captain title - trading in rewards for a Rune when you only need one more? Insta-win!

Quote:
The seige title will come into play MAYBE once a game... You'd be better off buying another hero looking for RUNES.

If you have the title, and are attacking an opponents rune for the win, this Title is also a big deal. I lost a game once because my opponent had this - and I lost the "strength compare" by 1 - which means if he HAD NOT had this card, I would have won! The +2 was the difference in me not winning the battle, allowing him to take my rune, and giving him his 6th.

Quote:
The Wizard TITLE card shouldn't BREAK TIES and GET INFLUENCE. Those should be broken up...maybe the CAPTAIN card should get the INFLUENCE. that Way you'll maybe break even on the investment you'd have to make in the first place.

I've found that as useful as the Primarch title is, it doesn't win games for you. It may HELP to win games, but I've not yet seen a game decided simply by this card. I've seen a game directly won by the other two - this one can never directly win a game for you.


If you don't want the Captain title, then don't grab it. If an opponent uses it to trade in their rewards for a rune to win the game, though... maybe you'll change your tune


I still maintain that the Revealing their True Nature card most CERTAINLY is canceled by the Captain title. I am confident when Corey responds, his response will confirm that.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I still maintain that the Revealing their True Nature card most CERTAINLY is canceled by the Captain title. I am confident when Corey responds, his response will confirm that.


I agree with sigmazero.

I consider it similar to what's common in CCG's as continuous modifiers (ongoing abilities, etc.) where if you have a modifier that says [something] can't happen, and then another modifier tries to make [something] happen, then the can't modifier takes precedence.

Unless of course god AKA The Rulebook page 25 AKA Corey dictates otherwise.
 
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There really isn't even a question as to whether Revealing their True Nature is cancelled by the Captain of the Heroes' League title. It is more clear than most other rules in the game.
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ASLChampion wrote:

Pretty much the TITLE is SHIT. The TITLE that breaks ties is WAYYYY more powerful than both of the other TITLES combined!!!!


I tried to make a witty remark, but I'll just suggest you play the game more. Really.

Yes, Primarch if the Wizard's Council is probably the title which is easier to see the benefits from. However the other titles can be devastating if used right. Who needs to win influence ties when they have +2 strength in the battles that get you dragon runes?

Whenever possible I prefer to hoard all three though
 
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I played a 3-player game this evening, and my brother won the game directly because of the Captain title - his Hero collected a bunch of items (despite our trying to take them from him), and at the end turned six of them in for 2 runes, winning him the game (in two consecutive seasons, of course).

It's hardly crap. I had both the other two Titles, and while they were helpful, they weren't enough to help me win in this game.
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Really, though; if Captain of the Heroes Guild doesn't apply to Revealing Their True Nature, what DOES it apply to?

Unless I'm missing something, there are 3 ways a hero will leave you (other than dying):

1. Revealing their True Nature
2. Coercion (this may or may not count as desertion, question pending to Corey)
3. Having more than 3 heroes

#3 is explicitly exempt from Captain of the Heroes Guild. If #2 isn't considered desertion, and #1 ignores the Captain, then the Captain anti-desertion ability is pointless.

For what it's worth, I got answers back from Corey on these.

I'll go in reverse order:

#3 - The rules specifically say the Captain of the Heroes Guild card does not prevent this.

#2 - "Coercion does NOT make the hero "desert". Therefore, the Captain of the Heroes guild does not protect against this." Pretty straightforward answer there.

Thus, the only one left that would apply is #1 - Revealing their True Nature. Here's Corey's response:

#1 - "Yes, Captain of the Heroes guild protects your heroes from "Revealing their True Nature"."


As expected
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