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Warhammer: Invasion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tooth & Claw Battle Pack questions rss

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Anselmo Diaz
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I got my 2 packs yesterday, and there are some questions I would like to see resolved. Whereas some of these questions may have been posted elsewhere, I'm also adding pictures of the cards for better understanding/illustrative purposes. laugh

DragonMage + Gromril Armour


THese two cards seem to be a powerful combination. So, effectively, any amount of damage assigned is reduced to 1, which in turn, due to the armour, is cancelled. Wow! Is this how this works? (If so, the High Elves, with cards like this DragonMage, and the Thrower, etc. will become my favourite!)


Grasping Darkness


How is this done? So you first take control of a target unit, move it to your corresponding zone, REGARDLESS OF ORDER?, then what happens?
* The unit is returned to the previous owner, or...
* The unit is destroyed?

Reap What's Sown


Is this a multi-player card? Meaning, any player can use it, regardless who played it? It seems to be so.
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Rauli Kettunen
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DM + GA has its own thread on the FFG forums. Currently, "thanks" to the FAQ ruling, unless you deal uncancellable damage, can't kill the DM. Attacking a zone with DM + GA will never do damage to capital, since it is impossible to get through. You can still Troll Vomit, Judgment, corrupt, etc. it.

Grasping Darkness, I'd say take control, then move to your corr. zone. At the end of the turn, Unit goes back to its owner's control and corr. zone.

Reap What's Sown, yep. Though with X, you can control which players can do the effect.
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Anselmo Diaz
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Thanks. I followed that thread too. To be honest, I was more looking for reassurance than actually getting to know the answers. All your answers are as I thought they would be.
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Brad Miller
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AS the author of the FFG thread, it certainly has appeared that this makes the Dragonmage pretty serious. Seemed too powerful and wrong to me, but I don't see any loopholes in it. Very glad the DM is a x1 card, as fighting three of those with GA would be boring as hell. I don't like the fact that this combo pretty much requires certain other cards to be in the meta, (attachment removal, uncancelability, or board wiping).
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We usually play decks of all one faction so this isn't an issue for us. But if we do end up playing some games with factions combined we could always house rule this combo, the Dragonmage with the armor, as illegal, if it seems too powerful.
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Brad Miller
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I don't know. As others have pointed out, there are ways of dealing with it. I still don't like it much. I guess that's why there were three "Mob Up"s in the BP...
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Kong Yew Wan
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Dam the Man wrote:
DM + GA has its own thread on the FFG forums. Currently, "thanks" to the FAQ ruling, unless you deal uncancellable damage, can't kill the DM. Attacking a zone with DM + GA will never do damage to capital, since it is impossible to get through.


Really? What if you can do more than three points of damage and assign the excess damage to the capital? When the damage to the DM is applied, it gets cancelled, but the remaining damage should still get applied to the capital, no?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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wankongyew wrote:
Dam the Man wrote:
DM + GA has its own thread on the FFG forums. Currently, "thanks" to the FAQ ruling, unless you deal uncancellable damage, can't kill the DM. Attacking a zone with DM + GA will never do damage to capital, since it is impossible to get through.


Really? What if you can do more than three points of damage and assign the excess damage to the capital? When the damage to the DM is applied, it gets cancelled, but the remaining damage should still get applied to the capital, no?


No, the FAQ changed the assigning rules. Before, you just had to assign = to the remaining HP, rest would go through. So if you attacked with a mass of Orcs + Waaagh! and got to assign 50 damage, only needed to assign 3 to the DM, 47 went through to capital. Now, you need to assign enough to destroy the Unit (so must take into account Toughness, etc.). Of course, DM + GA is impossible to destroy with normal damage, but doesn't matter, still need to assign enough to destroy the Unit shake . Say you again assign 50 damage to the DM (to give a ridiculous example, though doable with the Empire Tactic that changes the zone that your opponent attacks I suppose), DM reduces this to 1 damage, then Toughness from GA negates even that one damage yuk .
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Dam the Man wrote:
Reap What's Sown, yep. Though with X, you can control which players can do the effect.


What do you mean by that? I've also wondered how the X works. Can you determine exactly what the cost of X is for yourself based on the # of Developments you want to acknowledge for this card? Do you still pay the X cost in resources?

Weird card.
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Damon Stone
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DM+GA works just how you think. Yes it is a powerful combo, it is far from unbeatable. As to having to include meta cards in your deck to handle this combo... lets be honest here, a deck without at least one of those cards that breaks this combo, is going to pretty much suck anyway. If you can't get rid of an annoying support card, bypass a defender, reset the zone/board, make damage so it cannot be canceled, steal the unit, or destroy the unit without doing damage to it, your deck is going to get walked over by pretty much every other popular deck right now because they all include cards where one or more of these is the best option to furthering your own strategic plans.

It is easy to get distracted by a single card combo which is obviously extremely powerful, but we have to remember that there is almost always a way around the combo using cards that should already be in your deck. Don't get me wrong this guy is going to be a serious PITA to face.

Of course it will usually take 7 or more resources to bring him out with the armour which means it isn't happening in the first couple of rounds and if he brings him out without the armour... well there are ways to kill him off before he becomes an immovable object.

Grasping Darkness - the unit stolen returns back to the zone in which it was stolen from at the end of the turn. There is nothing indicating that it could or should be discarded or destroyed at the end of the turn. Of course stealing the unit and sacrificing it to power an effect is always nice, as is using it to attack where your opponent ends up having to assign no damage to it and letting the attack go through or very possibly assigning enough damage to kill it. Couple this with Call the Blood to either ensure the stolen unit is destroyed if it takes damage, or to take out the likely larger blocking unit when you assign it damage.
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Damon, can you answer my question about Reap What's Sown?

1. Do you pay the X cost in resources?
2. Do you have to use the full amount of your Developments in order to use this? Or can you choose to use only a few when paying for this card?

Thanks.
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Rauli Kettunen
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I see it like:

I use Reap and pay 5 Resources for X. Then, any player with 5 or more developments can do the effect, they don't pay for it. Also, I think IF you choose to discard your hand (optional due to "may"), you then have to draw all 5 cards.
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Wow, that doesn't seem right. So your opponent won't have to pay any cost but you do? Bizarre.

I'm going to have to post this question at FFG...this card is too confusing for me at the moment and I'm going to have to get some clarification. D'oh!
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Malte Menger
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why is that bizarre? you can built your deck around this card and you choose the timing of it's effect. i do not see any problem at all.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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That's what I meant about X giving Reap's user a modicum of control on who falls under X and who doesn't. Since developments are open knowledge. Against Orc Rush, X of 3 could possibly exlude the Orc player from the mix.
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Damon Stone
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X as a cost is always what you choose to pay unless the card states that X equals a variable cost defined in the card text. In this case that is not done, so X is handled as a variable cost with an upper limit equal to the player of the cards total developments. So if you have 10 developments in play the most you could pay is 10 and get the effect. If you choose to pay 6 resources X=6. Each player with at least 6 developments in play may discard their hand (if they choose) and then draw 6 cards. If they choose to discard their hand they must draw all 6 cards.

So yes, you pay the X in resources and X does not have to equal your total developments, it just can't be more than your total developments.

What will be interesting is whether or not the discarding of your hand will require a discard of cards... IOW your hand is the total amount of cards in your hand and this amount could technically be 0 (in Thrones there was a card or two that were worded and ruled this way). "[Blank] card(s) in hand" would refer to a specific number of cards, and would always would require an actual card to be discarded, where as just "hand" is a nebulous term when it comes to what your hand contains. I suspect that they will probably rule that your hand must include at least one card, for ease of understanding, but would not be totally surprised if they did not considering the past rule in Thrones.
 
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Marc Mistiaen
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wytefang wrote:
Wow, that doesn't seem right. So your opponent won't have to pay any cost but you do? Bizarre.

Do you have your opponent pay 3 Ressources when you play Will off Tzeentch?
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Excellent point, Marc. Thanks for pointing that out!
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Anselmo Diaz
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Alright, in summary:
Q1.- A powerful combo. Nothing more, nothing less.
Q2.- The unit comes back (unless destroyed, etc.) to the original owner at the end of the turn.
Q3.- Still open. zombie
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Sven Kaiser
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Concerning Will of Tzeentch, this is pretty clear to me. It reminds me a card called "Wheel of Fortune" for Magic: the Gathering.
The player who plays the card pays its cost but both players suffer/profit from its effect.

I see at least 3 possible strategies for this card:
1. have the opposing player discard a well filled hand of cards (more than 3 cards); he will only have 3 cards left after his quest phase.
2. you can use it in a deck which aimes to win through the milling strategy (empty the opponent's deck and win when he cannot draw a card anymore)
3. play this card when you have played all your cards in hand. This is particularly useful if you plan to play with a very weak (underdeveloped) quest zone (could find a place in an Orc rush deck)

There could be other uses of course but I am convinced, that the other player(s) do not have to pay any resources! He only has to discard his current hand.
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Damon Stone
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He does not have to pay anything to use it if you trigger it... but he also doesn't have to participate, so it isn't very effective for milling, unless your opponent just doesn't realize what is going on.
 
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Steve
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Dam the Man wrote:
No, the FAQ changed the assigning rules. Before, you just had to assign = to the remaining HP, rest would go through. So if you attacked with a mass of Orcs + Waaagh! and got to assign 50 damage, only needed to assign 3 to the DM, 47 went through to capital. Now, you need to assign enough to destroy the Unit (so must take into account Toughness, etc.). Of course, DM + GA is impossible to destroy with normal damage, but doesn't matter, still need to assign enough to destroy the Unit shake . Say you again assign 50 damage to the DM (to give a ridiculous example, though doable with the Empire Tactic that changes the zone that your opponent attacks I suppose), DM reduces this to 1 damage, then Toughness from GA negates even that one damage yuk .


Agreed. This was a BS ruling IMHO, but I guess what can you do. I thought the rules as they were before were very nice.
 
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Matt R
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garysax wrote:
Dam the Man wrote:
No, the FAQ changed the assigning rules. Before, you just had to assign = to the remaining HP, rest would go through. So if you attacked with a mass of Orcs + Waaagh! and got to assign 50 damage, only needed to assign 3 to the DM, 47 went through to capital. Now, you need to assign enough to destroy the Unit (so must take into account Toughness, etc.). Of course, DM + GA is impossible to destroy with normal damage, but doesn't matter, still need to assign enough to destroy the Unit shake . Say you again assign 50 damage to the DM (to give a ridiculous example, though doable with the Empire Tactic that changes the zone that your opponent attacks I suppose), DM reduces this to 1 damage, then Toughness from GA negates even that one damage yuk .


Agreed. This was a BS ruling IMHO, but I guess what can you do. I thought the rules as they were before were very nice.


I wonder now if the rule change in the FAQ was intentional specifically to make that card combo so powerful?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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garysax wrote:
Agreed. This was a BS ruling IMHO, but I guess what can you do. I thought the rules as they were before were very nice.


That's been my main gripe about this particular change in the FAQ, things were fine with how there were, no combo such as this existed. And I do believe people behind the FAQ had ample knowledge of the DM at the time the FAQ was released.
 
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Damon Stone
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IMO it isn't a BS ruling. It was generally believed that Dwarfs were underpowered, that Orcs were overpowered, and the ability to ignore toughness meant games were shorter and less strategically rich because of it. This ruling also serves to beef up High Elfs apparently and though the full span of the race has not been seen yet, the general consensus was they were to expensive for their various healing an damage canceling abilities.

I'm not saying that was how I felt, but I have heard those as complaints from a number of different players in metas in multiple countries. Having played before, during (I was mid-game when James contacted me with confirmation), and after the ruling, I can say the average game sees little change, it is only when Dwarfs or non-blitz Orc decks get into the grind is there a difference, and the game actually becomes more interesting because of it, not less.

That to me shows it is a good ruling, even if it is not one I like.
 
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