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Subject: 3 Rookies and a Neophyte walk into a Bar... rss

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Stephen Stewart
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After arriving at Brian's on time ...1 hour late...I was apprehensive about the game he had sprawled on his table.

DUNGEON LORDS

As Brian expertly took us through the COMBAT (monster/trap assignment) phase of the game (3 or 4 examples) we were ready to take on the Goody-2-shoes humans and their thievery. We worked hard to Pillage the countryside, and NO PALADIN is going to take it BACK!!

Damn Holy Warrior yuk

To keep the interest going...2 of these bad boys didn't hurt!!



The first few seasons didn't seem too bad, I got some early food and Imps to do my bidding, BUT I did notice that if you want to be 3rd in a row and get the really good stuff : nutmeggingerpepper devil and the like, you definitely want to look to make sure you CAN by virtue of other players having those cards available to play....a nice subtle mechanic/observation that you must master in this game.


OK after scoring a BIG BAD VAMPIRE devil and a minor trap (my dungeon was the most FRIENDLY dungeon in the realm.. I was setup to recruit the really MEAN NASTYS later on.



Cool things begin to happen the second year. You look to see where you are in the running for the TITLEs to be earned at the end of the game. Brian had the Traps and Aaron and Russell had a bunch of everything to make it hard to see what they were getting.

I just kept on doing what I was doing....Getting rooms for cheap...and Keeping my dungeon a Happy place for the 1st level D&D players to come to. I think I got the "weakest" heroes for most of the game.

It was a tight game with Russell, Brian, and myself losing an action due to events and coming in last on a resource table.

I think I ended the game by winning by 2 points over Aaron or Brian.

You Definitely have to PLAY the game rather than Watch.
Just like Agricola, boring to watch, but a world of difference when you play.

GO BUY IT ...It's like $45 or something like that. AND it's a Fantasy players AGRICOLA!
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David desJardins
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ASLChampion wrote:
AND it's a Fantasy players AGRICOLA!


Yeah, there's all of my disappointment summed up in one sentence.
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Not really, Agricola is about building an engine, and layering together combos. Dungeon Lords is about trying to manage a bunch of different things at once, of which a shortage of anything leads to you being horribly screwed.

Lets review the consequences for ignoring each actions

Food: Your monsters quit painfully and you can't buy Imps
Happy: You get taken apart by Adventurers
Dig: You are unable to place Rooms, especially in secure areas
Mine: You can't do half the actions and lose VPs from Taxes
Imps: You can't use Rooms
Traps: You get taken apart by Adventurers
Monster: You get taken apart by Adventurers
Rooms: You waste spare Imp power, and have no alternate ways to obtain resources.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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wodan46 wrote:
Not really, Agricola is about building an engine, and layering together combos. Dungeon Lords is about trying to manage a bunch of different things at once, of which a shortage of anything leads to you being horribly screwed.


But, you have to admit it's similar. Although you don't have the Occs and improvs in hand, monsters abstractly reflect this.

The future planning and resources you need in the upcoming turns and baddies you'll be inviting into your Dungeon doesn't EXACTLY put it on AGRICOLA level, but can be compared to it IMHO.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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DaviddesJ wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:
AND it's a Fantasy players AGRICOLA!


Yeah, there's all of my disappointment summed up in one sentence.



 
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[
ASLChampion wrote:
AND it's a Fantasy players AGRICOLA!


Agricola this is not.

In Agricola, you can be denied an action by any single player taking that action before you.

In Dungeon Lords, you can be denied an action only if every other player takes that action before you. No shut outs, just a tactically different result.

In Agricola the start player token moves only by sacrificing an action the previous turn (to take the start player marker).

In Dungeon Lords the start player token moves in an extremely predictable pattern that can be anticipated and planned for.

In Agricola, I can get extra workers to place.

In Dungeon Lords, I can get only three, and can simulate those actions with a production room and Imps (but will have to forgo other Imp actions, or gain more Imps in order to use that room).

In Agricola, you are building on a 3x5 board with two initial tiles placed.

In Dungeon Lords you are building on a 4x5 board with three initial tiles placed.

Agricola is a game.

Dungeon Lords is a game.

Okay -- one similarity.

-=-=-

To those 'disappointed' by this game, what exactly were you expecting?

 
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David desJardins
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byronczimmer wrote:
To those 'disappointed' by this game, what exactly were you expecting?


Not yet another worker placement game.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
To those 'disappointed' by this game, what exactly were you expecting?


Not yet another worker placement game.


That's what you didn't want.

What did you want.
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David desJardins
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byronczimmer wrote:
What did you want.


Well, that gets awfully hypothetical. If I could design the perfect game then I would just do it myself, I wouldn't need to wait for anyone else to do it.

But, less abstract resource allocation (e.g., the placement of minions to get resources in complicated and artificial ways) and more of a focus on what you actually do with the resources you get.
 
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When I send a minion to go get food, he brings back food. Maybe he pays for it, maybe he worsens my reputation, but he always brings back food.

When I send a minion to go improve my rep, my rep is always improved.

When I send a minion to allow me to dig tunnels, I always get to dig tunnels...

etc, etc, etc

It would be 'another worker placement' game if the order cards weren't in play, but they are, so the actual results of your order (unless you get shut out) are always what you wanted, but not necessarily as much or at the costs you wanted.

Which means it's not a worker placement game and it's not Agricola, which is what you wanted!

QED
 
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David desJardins
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byronczimmer wrote:
When I send a minion to go get food, he brings back food. Maybe he pays for it, maybe he worsens my reputation, but he always brings back food.


Not only is that not relevant to what I said, it's not even true. Read the rules again.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
When I send a minion to go get food, he brings back food. Maybe he pays for it, maybe he worsens my reputation, but he always brings back food.


Not only is that not relevant to what I said, it's not even true. Read the rules again.


Entirely relevant, and I have read the rules, thank you.

You play the minion card 'food'.

One of FOUR possibilities will occur:
1: You pay 1 gold to get 2 food
2: You pay 1 'evil' to get 3 food
3: You pay 2 'evil' to get 3 food and a gold
4: You forgo the action because
a: you choose to
b: you were the 4th to pick 'get food'

Except for 4, which I accounted for, every one of those nets you food.

How, exactly, does my minion not bring back food when I issue the 'food card' order?
 
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David desJardins
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byronczimmer wrote:
How, exactly, does my minion not bring back food when I issue the 'food card' order?


How does your minion not bring back food when you choose food? It's case 4. You listed it yourself.

The whole argument is completely irrelevant, anyway. Even if were true that when you choose food you always get food, which it's not, that wouldn't change the nature of the game in any significant way. It has nothing to do with what I like or don't like about it.

Why do you ask about what I like and don't like, anyway? You sure don't seem interested in the answers.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
When I send a minion to go get food, he brings back food. Maybe he pays for it, maybe he worsens my reputation, but he always brings back food.

It would be 'another worker placement' game if the order cards weren't in play, but they are, so the actual results of your order (unless you get shut out) are always what you wanted, but not necessarily as much or at the costs you wanted.


Stop selectively quoting and read the whole post.

In a worker placement game, I am shut out of an action when one other person places their worker there.

In this game, I am only shut out of an action when every other player places their worker on the same 'space' -- and I can anticipate that happening. I have to try to figure out what my opponents will be doing and use that knowledge to maneuver my minions onto the precise result that I desire. So this isn't worker placement game, it's something different. It's an indirect worker placement game where I'm a lot less likely to get shut out of a needed action, but have to tactically handle the different possible results.

Not liking it is your prerogative. Your reasons for not liking it are 'the rules aren't what I wanted'. I recommend not playing the game and not reading about it if that's the case. It's why I don't subscribe to Power Grid anymore, because I just really don't like that game.
 
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David desJardins
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byronczimmer wrote:
In a worker placement game, I am shut out of an action when one other person places their worker there.


Nope. Not in this one, for example.

Quote:
I recommend not playing the game and not reading about it if that's the case.


I don't care what you recommend.
 
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Michael Purser
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I think what he means is this:

If you dislike something SO much, as you clearly do, that is okay. But it seems counter-productive to spend so much effort actively seeking to dissuade others from a game you don't like. People are different.

Dungeon Lords never intimated that it would ever be anything but a worker placement/puzzle game. If that isn't what you want, you might enjoy playing or seeking out games closer to your ideal. It isn't worth it to get worked up over something you don't like and don't have to play.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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byronczimmer wrote:
[
ASLChampion wrote:
AND it's a Fantasy players AGRICOLA!


Agricola this is not.

-=-=-

To those 'disappointed' by this game, what exactly were you expecting?



Place workers, get resources, fight the game mechanics and NOT the other players, build SHIT, get shafted by having to pay for resources when you didn't want to....oh yeah, build more shit...

Yep sounds a lot like AGRICOLA.

I didn't say it WAS Agricola. Sorry I tainted an image of your FAVORITE GAME.
 
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David desJardins
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Appolus wrote:
But it seems counter-productive to spend so much effort actively seeking to dissuade others from a game you don't like.


Wow. I would never spend any time or effort trying to dissuade people from a game I don't like. What gave you that idea? I think there's no reason people shouldn't play and enjoy Dungeon Lords. I even bought a copy and lent it to a friend so that he could play the game.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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byronczimmer wrote:
Stop selectively quoting and read the whole post.

In a worker placement game, I am shut out of an action when one other person places their worker there.


That may be the more currently prevalent implementation of the game mechanism "worker-placement", but it is not by any means necessarily the only implementation. AoE III, for example, also permits placement of multiple "workers" toward the same action, with priority going to first-placed. I imagine there are other examples that escape me at the moment.

I don't think there's any organized dispute of Dungeon Lords being guilty of using the "worker placement" mechanism - your lone attempt at defining gaming mechanisms for everyone else notwithstanding.
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Stephen Stewart
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byronczimmer wrote:
Stop selectively quoting and read the whole post.

In a worker placement game, I am shut out of an action when one other person places their worker there.


You are correct, BUT isn't there generally another space to get the same resources. In a 5 player game, you can even get the same animal in 2 places. Albeit at a lower amount...hmm, DL does this on the same space, more efficient use of a game board.

DungeonCOLA !!
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Quote:
You play the minion card 'food'.

One of FOUR possibilities will occur:
1: You pay 1 gold to get 2 food
2: You pay 1 'evil' to get 3 food
3: You pay 2 'evil' to get 3 food and a gold
4: You forgo the action because
a: you choose to
b: you were the 4th to pick 'get food'
c: your minion landed on a slot with a cost you cannot or should not pay

Except for 4, which I accounted for, every one of those nets you food.

How, exactly, does my minion not bring back food when I issue the 'food card' order?


You can't except case 4 (which BTW I added option c to because that can happen too), because case 4 is what you're noting: the minion does not bring back food as a result of the order.
 
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DarrellKH wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Stop selectively quoting and read the whole post.

In a worker placement game, I am shut out of an action when one other person places their worker there.


That may be the more currently prevalent implementation of the game mechanism "worker-placement", but it is not by any means necessarily the only implementation. AoE III, for example, also permits placement of multiple "workers" toward the same action, with priority going to first-placed. I imagine there are other examples that escape me at the moment.


Caylus, one of the first and best-known worker placement games has an example of this: both the castle and the turn-order space allow multiple people to choose that action each turn resolving in order.
 
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Matt Smith
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The twist that DL introduces to the Worker Placement genre is the simultaneous action selection mechanic. This has led to the "is it Worker Placement or Role Selection" debate.

Personally, I'd call it "simultaneous, multiple worker placement". Each player is really "placing" three workers at the same time as the other players, with card order and player order determining where the workers end up.

Oh, and with a couple of games under your belt, option 4 (minion doesn't get an action spot) is fairly easy to avoid. Not always, mind you, but that just adds to the fun tension of this game, IMO.
 
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